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Coach Q Quote on Starting Enes or Rudy

Sexual Favors said:
So if that's your position, you should sign him and then trade him when the value is on your side again. Trading him now couldn't possibly fetch his value because of his expiring contract, and letting him walk is bad business when you consider where we're at financially.

Expiring contracts are only valuable for teams who acquire them as salary dumps accompanied with picks.
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If he gets a big offer, his trade value diminishes, it doesn't go up. The only way his trade value increases after we re-sign him is if his salary is low enough(or he massively improves his play). Who would let go off big assets for one of the worst bigs in the league according to most advanced metrics ever conceived on a huge contract? The chance that we will simply get stuck with a horrible contract is too big, I think. If on the other hand we sign him for a good deal(then his trade value would increase), there is no reason to trade him, since he will be a good punch off the bench for us for affordable price.

For me the best solution is to trade him now before the deadline if we think he's going to get a big deal. If we think he's not going to command less than 10M , then by all means keep him.
 
stitches said:
If he gets a big offer, his trade value diminishes, it doesn't go up. The only way his trade value increases after we re-sign him is if his salary is low enough(or he massively improves his play). Who would let go off big assets for one of the worst bigs in the league according to most advanced metrics ever conceived on a huge contract? The chance that we will simply get stuck with a horrible contract is too big, I think. If on the other hand we sign him for a good deal(then his trade value would increase), there is no reason to trade him, since he will be a good punch off the bench for us for affordable price.

For me the best solution is to trade him now before the deadline if we think he's going to get a big deal. If we think he's not going to command less than 10M , then by all means keep him.
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I'm not going to disagree with anything said here, but will expound on a few things.

1.) Enes is capable of huge offensive production in terms of scoring and rebounds. Playing with Rudy will only help him to improve this production.

2.) Nobody can account for how the TV deal will impact contracts. It's unprecedented. Everything is speculation, but if last year is any indication, Kanter will likely get a pretty sizable contract.

3.) Utah is still Utah. Players of this caliber don't usually come available to the Jazz. You hold on to them as long as you can. If the Jazz are happy with his development, and they don't have any free agents they want to pursue, the prudent thing will be to keep Kanter and sort out the rotation.

4.) If the Jazz don't trade him at the deadline, then they need to be prepared to match a MAX contract. It's the Hayward situation, not the Millsap/Jefferson situation. You don't let potential franchise caliber bigs walk on a RFA offer sheet. If they're not willing to match anything, they should strongly consider selling as high as possible and trade him now.

5.) I like that the Jazz are rehabbing his trade value. Over the course of the season, he could potentially become one of the most coveted assets available. They don't have to trade him, but if an opportunity to land an All -Star caliber player comes along, you package Kanter into that deal if you need to. . . although. . . if the Jazz can turn their draft picks into an asset, the ability to match his contract is very valuable.

6.) I think Kanter's ceiling is a poor man's Kevin Love. Strong offensive scorer and rebounder, but a negative on defense. With a long-term rotation of Gobert, Kanter and Favors. . . I could easily see Kanter continue to improve to a 20-10 level player and actually have him be more valuable on his 2nd contract like Love was. Especially if the market isn't a MAX level deal. I'm almost certain that he'll end up with a 4 year - near max deal with a player option on the last season. I can live with that, although I'd prefer to see them aggressively pursue another wing to pair with Hayward.
 
Yeah, I don't think Kanter gets a Max offer anymore. in looking over the teams that are likely going to have capspace most are looking to pile up assets and Kanter at a Max salary is not really an asset. He isn't going to be a piece that puts you into contention like Hayward could have been for the right team. Maxing Kanter is the kind of decision that gets you fired as a GM if it doesn't pay off. If the Jazz don't trade him, I suspect that he will be back on a contract negotiated with the Jazz similar or just under what Favors is getting. How many teams with a Max sized slot would value Kanter more than Utah?
 
stitches said:
I've been wondering for the past couple of weeks, what do jazzfanzers consider a good deal for Enes? What's the max amount of money you would give him and feel good about it?

For me I think about 8m is the mark... I think anything above 10 would be horrible.
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Sounds about right. I think I could even buy into 11M (hear me out) knowing how much the cap will jump over the next 2-3 years. Frontload it and 3 years from now, about 10M will be like 7M now. Not bad all things considered. But dude NEEDS to learn how to pass. The whole team does for that matter.
 
I mean you have Boston, Philly, New York, Detroit, and Portland if they cannot resign Lemarcus Aldridge. Which of those teams is going to Max Kanter?
 
framer said:
I mean you have Boston, Philly, New York, Detroit, and Portland if they cannot resign Lemarcus Aldridge. Which of those teams is going to Max Kanter?
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I honestly can't see any of those teams signing him. Maybe Portland though. Boston and NY seem like they have their heads on straight and won't fall for him. Detroit has Drummond and Monroe. Philly is invested in Noel and Embiid. Portland is the only one since they love screwing us (Millsap, Matthews) and are a thin team in general.
 
freakazoid said:
Nah, we're debating being polygamist. We already know who we are marrying, we're just trying to decide if there's enough room for her less attractive sister.
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The better question is if we can get a higher dowery for the sister before or after we marry her.
 
Ellis269, you make some good points but I have to comment on those:

Ellis269 said:
I'm not going to disagree with anything said here, but will expound on a few things.

1.) Enes is capable of huge offensive production in terms of scoring and rebounds. Playing with Rudy will only help him to improve this production.

2.) Nobody can account for how the TV deal will impact contracts. It's unprecedented. Everything is speculation, but if last year is any indication, Kanter will likely get a pretty sizable contract.

3.) Utah is still Utah. Players of this caliber don't usually come available to the Jazz. You hold on to them as long as you can. If the Jazz are happy with his development, and they don't have any free agents they want to pursue, the prudent thing will be to keep Kanter and sort out the rotation.

4.) If the Jazz don't trade him at the deadline, then they need to be prepared to match a MAX contract. It's the Hayward situation, not the Millsap/Jefferson situation. You don't let potential franchise caliber bigs walk on a RFA offer sheet. If they're not willing to match anything, they should strongly consider selling as high as possible and trade him now.
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It's not exactly the Hayward situation. Hayward even in a bad season was clearly top SG/SF in the league. Kanter isn't anywhere near that. He's never been close to being a 'plus' player and his defensive deficiencies and complete lack of on-court awareness and passing will likely hinder him from ever being a net positive player for his team. Right now he's a one dimensional offensive finisher and rebounder who doesn't pass and doesn't defend. And again - the question for us is not if he deserves the money(no) and it's not if we can afford it(theoretically yes). The question we should be asking ourselves is - can we get anything better for the same $$? If the answer to this one is yes, then the only reason to sign him is if we think that we can get something for him in a trade. On that possibility I will expound later in the post.

Ellis269 said:
5.) I like that the Jazz are rehabbing his trade value. Over the course of the season, he could potentially become one of the most coveted assets available. They don't have to trade him, but if an opportunity to land an All -Star caliber player comes along, you package Kanter into that deal if you need to. . . although. . . if the Jazz can turn their draft picks into an asset, the ability to match his contract is very valuable.
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I love him getting big numbers both for the sake of the team and for the sake of his trade value, too. I don't buy that he's going to become a coveted asset around the league. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean he won't get a big offer because simply put, it doesn't take the whole league to be drooling over him for him to get a massive offer. It takes one desperate GM/owner.
Ellis269 said:
6.) I think Kanter's ceiling is a poor man's Kevin Love. Strong offensive scorer and rebounder, but a negative on defense. With a long-term rotation of Gobert, Kanter and Favors. . . I could easily see Kanter continue to improve to a 20-10 level player and actually have him be more valuable on his 2nd contract like Love was. Especially if the market isn't a MAX level deal. I'm almost certain that he'll end up with a 4 year - near max deal with a player option on the last season. I can live with that, although I'd prefer to see them aggressively pursue another wing to pair with Hayward.
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And here we come to the potential contract that we will have to match and its effect on his trade value. Pretty much every big offer sheet that was been signed lately has included nasty toxic poisons that are designed to make the team not match(both Parsons and Haywards contract had those - player option for the last year, 15-20% trade kickers, frontloading or backloading depending on what the team is supposed to need now and down the road, etc). This means that if we decide to match in order to trade him later, his contract becomes even worse to trade. So if he gets a max 70M(4 years) with trade kicker of 15%, his contract actually becomes 80 million contract. If his contract is 48M, it becomes 55M... So yah, if we are going to let the RFA come with the idea that we can just match and trade later, we should seriously think twice about it. If our FO has information that even one other FO looks at Kanter highly and is willing to break the bank for him, we should SERIOUSLY consider trading him now. The only reason I can think of waiting for RFA is if we think he won't get any offers or if we think the only offers are the ones we are going to be happy matching.
 
stitches - great post.

I've said for some time now that my priority would be to

A.) rehab and increase the trade level of both Kanter and Burke as much as possible and then try to put together a package for a young, high level starting wing to pair with Gordon Hayward. A starting lineup of Gobert, Favors, Hayward, New Wing and Exum with Burks, the 2015 draft picks, Booker, Hood, BabySap, Neto and salary cap flexibility to add another free agent or two is a pretty damn strong lineup.

B.) Short of including Kanter in a blockbuster deal this year, they need to play out the season with Gobert and Favors as starters with Kanter scoring off the bench. Mess with the rotation and figure out the best fit. If you're happy with that, you work to extend his contract on your terms without it becoming contentious. If you don't trade him, then you'd better be prepared to match his contract and hope that it's not awful.
 
Pelton?
 
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