Devin Harris on Al Jefferson: Jazz fans will be surprised if they see him

[sepanol]

You turn a lot of people off of the kid by incessantly pimping him as the GOAT. There isn't anybody on this board that hates him including me. Yet to you that is the only other option to starting and playing the kid 30+ minutes, and trading away players that produce.

Your POV is entirely dependent on the assumption that Kanter is going to be a great player, much better than Jefferson. You don't care that as a guy that hasn't played even a single college game and very limited BBall over the last several years Kanter would benefit quite a bit playing WITH somebody who possesses elite moves under the basket. You don't care that the team has a rookie coach who needs all the help he can get to create a winning culture. It doesn't matter to you that by sitting pat through this season (if there is one) Utah will have an even greater advantage for 2012 in terms of flexibility, young talent and movable assets vs. static salary.

No, nothing is as important as force-feeding Kanter all the minutes his young body can handle so your dreams can come true as soon as possible. And you wonder why everybody else isn't on that train.

I never say Kanter should get 30+ mins first year in any of my posts. Even if we ship Big Al, millsap should be the one getting 30+ and plus there is memo. Kanter and Favors can come off the bench and start learning without Big Al too.

It is just my opinion that Kanter will be much better overall than Big Al. Because i can see Kanter has similar post games, plus better shooting touch. So offensively i dont think he will be worse than Big Al. And from what i have seen in the euro cup, he may not be the best defender in the league, but at least he defends with his brain. Just has couple of flaws like lateral quickness and else.

So for me, he will be like a Big Al who has better touch and defensively smarter and that makes a pretty good player. But like Boozer and like Jefferson, if you have a serious weakness in defense, it makes you half a player, because defense is an important part of the game. How many elite players are there in the league who plays only one side of the game and is very good, especially being a Big man? And tell me, how you rank Big Al among other PF (i see him as a PF rather than C) in the league? Would he make top 8?

 

[Deleted member 848]

I never say Kanter should get 30+ mins first year in any of my posts. Even if we ship Big Al, millsap should be the one getting 30+ and plus there is memo. Kanter and Favors can come off the bench and start learning without Big Al too.

It is just my opinion that Kanter will be much better overall than Big Al. Because i can see Kanter has similar post games, plus better shooting touch. So offensively i dont think he will be worse than Big Al. And from what i have seen in the euro cup, he may not be the best defender in the league, but at least he defends with his brain. Just has couple of flaws like lateral quickness and else.

So for me, he will be like a Big Al who has better touch and defensively smarter and that makes a pretty good player. But like Boozer and like Jefferson, if you have a serious weakness in defense, it makes you half a player, because defense is an important part of the game. How many elite players are there in the league who plays only one side of the game and is very good, especially being a Big man? And tell me, how you rank Big Al among other PF (i see him as a PF rather than C) in the league? Would he make top 8?

Tell me Sepanol: How many centers in the NBA are better "offensively" than Al Jefferson? And don't use the "I see him as a PF" argument, seeing as as of now he has predominately played as a five, and therefore a comparison of his stats and skills would be most accurate with other centres in the NBA. Hell, id even go as far as to say if you include PFs in the mix, he's still among the elite on the offensive side of the ball game. Using Big Al as a basement for Kanters offensive potential is just really funny to me.

 

[sepanol]

Tell me Sepanol: How many centers in the NBA are better "offensively" than Al Jefferson? And don't use the "I see him as a PF" argument, seeing as as of now he has predominately played as a five, and therefore a comparison of his stats and skills would be most accurate with other centres in the NBA. Hell, id even go as far as to say if you include PFs in the mix, he's still among the elite on the offensive side of the ball game. Using Big Al as a basement for Kanters offensive potential is just really funny to me.

Bynum, Jamison, Chris Bosh, Howard, Brand, Amare, Gasol , Nowitzki, Garnett, Duncan ,Lewis

These are the big man who is paid more than Big Al. Whom you can point out that Big Al is really better?

Lewis is paid crazily more than what he deserves everybody knows that, but who else? Maybe Jamison, we can discuss who is better or not. But clearly Big Al, isnt on the level of these elite players, i can even count more players who is paid less and better than him,

Randolph, Griffin, Lamarcus, B.Lopez, Kevin love, Horford, Cousins

So i reverse the question, well you say he is a center, ok lets take it like that, how many centers in the league is a worse defender than Big Al ? Count me 5

I am not trying to find his mistakes or try to see him worse than he is, but this is the fact. with blocking , you can save only one possession, but without iq you cant be a good defender at all. Only good thing Big Al do related to defense is blocking timing.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Bynum, Jamison, Chris Bosh, Howard, Brand, Amare, Gasol , Nowitzki, Garnett, Duncan ,Lewis

These are the big man who is paid more than Big Al. Whom you can point out that Big Al is really better?

Lewis is paid crazily more than what he deserves everybody knows that, but who else? Maybe Jamison, we can discuss who is better or not. But clearly Big Al, isnt on the level of these elite players, i can even count more players who is paid less and better than him,

Randolph, Griffin, Lamarcus, B.Lopez, Kevin love, Horford, Cousins

So i reverse the question, well you say he is a center, ok lets take it like that, how many centers in the league is a worse defender than Big Al ? Count me 5

I am not trying to find his mistakes or try to see him worse than he is, but this is the fact. with blocking , you can save only one possession, but without iq you cant be a good defender at all. Only good thing Big Al do related to defense is blocking timing.

Many of those players you listed are definitely not centers. I will start off with Antwan Jamison, wtf. Bosh, Brand, Amare, Nowitizki, Garnett, and Lewis (Rashard?) are also definitely not centers. Arguments could be made for Duncan and Gasol that that they are centers, and I would agree.

 

[sepanol]

Many of those players you listed are definitely not centers. I will start off with Antwan Jamison, wtf. Bosh, Brand, Amare, Nowitizki, Garnett, and Lewis (Rashard?) are also definitely not centers. Arguments could be made for Duncan and Gasol that that they are centers, and I would agree.

Honestly, Duncan and Gasol i believe are also PFs and Big al as well.
Anyway, there is only Howard as an elite center in this league and no other player can come close to his level right now. Lets say i count Big Al to be PF then obviously there are many players better than him right now, do you agree?. Lets say, he is a center, then tell me how many centers are there in the league with worse defense? I dont even say starting centers, just centers.

Btw, he plays center in Utah mainly because Millsap cant, Memo is injured, Fes sucks. Not because he is a real center.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Honestly, Duncan and Gasol i believe are also PFs and Big al as well.
Anyway, there is only Howard as an elite center in this league and no other player can come close to his level right now. Lets say i count Big Al to be PF then obviously there are many players better than him right now, do you agree?. Lets say, he is a center, then tell me how many centers are there in the league with worse defense? I dont even say starting centers, just centers.

Btw, he plays center in Utah mainly because Millsap cant, Memo is injured, Fes sucks. Not because he is a real center.

So you never told me Sepanol;

How many centers are more offensively skilled as of right now (Duncan is definitely on the decline) than Al Jefferson? I really dont care what you think his "Natural" position is, fact of the matter is that he played 82 games as a center last season, has predominately played center for most of his career, and should therefore have his offensive repetoire compared against people of that position.

You just swapped the question and started talking about his defense......typical. You said that Kanter would become at LEAST better than him, and now youre not addressing my question.

 

[billyshelby]

Sepanol: Just admit you don't have any idea how good Al is, or Sap, or Favors. You've never really seen them. Everyone gets the agenda. You love Kanter. You want him playing as many minutes next year as possible. You don't care if it makes the team worse. Kanter is the future. A superstar that will obviously be better than Al is now, or Milsap, or Favors.

Just admit this. Then you won't have to write a lot of posts that pretend at objectivity. And we won't have to read them.

 

[jope]

Bynum, Jamison, Chris Bosh, Howard, Brand, Amare, Gasol , Nowitzki, Garnett, Duncan ,Lewis

Out of this group, not even caring that most of the players you named are not centers, i would take al's offense over everyone but dirk, amare and gasol.

bynum's game is still developing (he can barely stay on the court),
jamison is old and awkward
bosh is softer than my **** after raisin bran
howard is a brute, and has the ability to dominate, but doesnt have the offensive consistency yet,(if he ever develops a midrange shot, lookout)
brand has been a let down for some time,
amare is a good offensive player, but you tout him as more deserving of the money he gets.... he plays NO defense and has a 100 mil contract. funny how that works.
gasol is very talented. soft, euro, but competitive, and a winner. cant argue it.
nowitski. plays no defense. elite beyond elite offensively. is he worth the money?
garnett is getting so old he isnt even a second option scorer on his team.
duncan, again, was once amazing, now aging and a solid role player.
lewis... really?

big al is definitely top 5 offensively in my book.

 

[sepanol]

So you never told me Sepanol;

How many centers are more offensively skilled as of right now (Duncan is definitely on the decline) than Al Jefferson? I really dont care what you think his "Natural" position is, fact of the matter is that he played 82 games as a center last season, has predominately played center for most of his career, and should therefore have his offensive repetoire compared against people of that position.

You just swapped the question and started talking about his defense......typical. You said that Kanter would become at LEAST better than him, and now youre not addressing my question.

I dont deny Big Al is a good offensive player, maybe he is one of the best in post savy moves under the rim, but i am trying to point out, defense is an important part of game.

Offensively skilled Center are you looking for? In general Centers aren't offensively skilled at all, for example Howard isnt as offensively skilled as Big Al but he scores more.
Brook Lopez , he may be not more offensively skilled, but he scores as much. Marc Gasol i think better Center overall, even though offensively i cant say exactly as good as him. Okafor is as good as him, but not as offensively skilled. Bynum as well.

So i dont see many Centers in nba offensively more skilled than Big Al but i can see many offensively more skilled PFs (which is his natural postion) and many better centers overall . So basically that doesnt put him on the elite level of players as you think he is.

So basically, offensively skilled doesnt exactly adress the essential ability Centers should have. And it doesnt mean anything if you dont use your offensive skills efficently. Yes Big Al is very skilled but he never used his skills as good as he is supposed to use. We can include decision making, court vision to the reasons of this.
He was never a good passer in double team or in general, he was never a good mid range jump shooter, he was always a good finisher close to the rim but not an effective scorer.
He can score 25 ppg if he makes more attempts, but that wont make him the best offensive player in the game. And in the defensive end, you cant even count me 5 centers who are worse than him so thats bad. Thats not the type of Center i would like to see in Utah. Plus you miss the details that as much as he scores 20+ ppg, we are not sure how he will be in playoffs? In playoffs teams will close under the rim more, they will make tougher defense, and then you should have many threats to score. Jefferson doesnt have that, he just do best the only thing he does, post up game. But he wont score in many different ways. So i am not sure, if he will score 20+ in playoffs as well or not.

And you are always missing the point, you always argue, if he is good or not, i dont say he is bad, i just say, he isnt as good as a 14 million per year player should be.

 

[sepanol]

Out of this group, not even caring that most of the players you named are not centers, i would take al's offense over everyone but dirk, amare and gasol.

bynum's game is still developing (he can barely stay on the court),
jamison is old and awkward
bosh is softer than my **** after raisin bran
howard is a brute, and has the ability to dominate, but doesnt have the offensive consistency yet,(if he ever develops a midrange shot, lookout)
brand has been a let down for some time,
amare is a good offensive player, but you tout him as more deserving of the money he gets.... he plays NO defense and has a 100 mil contract. funny how that works.
gasol is very talented. soft, euro, but competitive, and a winner. cant argue it.
nowitski. plays no defense. elite beyond elite offensively. is he worth the money?
garnett is getting so old he isnt even a second option scorer on his team.
duncan, again, was once amazing, now aging and a solid role player.
lewis... really?

big al is definitely top 5 offensively in my book.

Man if you are looking overall, i can discuss if its right or no about Amare for example, but if you are looking offensively, come on Amare is better. Bosh is a better scorer and not worse defender for sure. Jamison is yes as you say. Bynum is a better player overall even right now in my opinion. Brand would be certainly better if he didnt have up and downs but right now i cant say. Gasol, i wont even argue who is better even though he is also a soft guy.

Nowitzki made the freaking Dallas team champion. Garnett has changed the air of whole Boston team in the recent 3 4 years. Duncan set a dynasty with spurs. Lewis played many critical games with clutch shots when orlando went to finals two years ago but hell no he doesntt deserve that crazy money. Howard is totally raw on offense but somehow he scores a lot and all his opponents has to foul out at times because physically he is unstoppable.

But if you say Big Al is top 5 in the offensive book, i would say, first he should score 20 points in a single playoff game, and lets discuss if he is better offensively than half of these guys above

 

[sepanol]

Sepanol: Just admit you don't have any idea how good Al is, or Sap, or Favors. You've never really seen them. Everyone gets the agenda. You love Kanter. You want him playing as many minutes next year as possible. You don't care if it makes the team worse. Kanter is the future. A superstar that will obviously be better than Al is now, or Milsap, or Favors.

Just admit this. Then you won't have to write a lot of posts that pretend at objectivity. And we won't have to read them.

Your comments seem like a joke but just in case if its serious i should answer,
i have seen only Big Al playing more mins than the number of your posts in these site. So i have my own ideas about each of these players and i dont need your precious ideas about how good they are. And it is pretty obvious you dont read my posts at all because you add Favors and Millsap on that line without knowing how high im on these players, and probably you didnt add Memo because he is turkish, so i would never criticize him right?

You cant prove how shallow your ideas are better than this, thats why better lets not discuss basketball with you. At least those other guys im arguing with , are providing some back up for their opinions, it would be nice if you bother yourself to give me contra ideas instead of hallucinatory ideas.

 

[Deleted member 848]

I dont deny Big Al is a good offensive player, maybe he is one of the best in post savy moves under the rim, but i am trying to point out, defense is an important part of game.

Offensively skilled Center are you looking for? In general Centers aren't offensively skilled at all, for example Howard isnt as offensively skilled as Big Al but he scores more.
Brook Lopez , he may be not more offensively skilled, but he scores as much. Marc Gasol i think better Center overall, even though offensively i cant say exactly as good as him. Okafor is as good as him, but not as offensively skilled. Bynum as well.

So i dont see many Centers in nba offensively more skilled than Big Al but i can see many offensively more skilled PFs (which is his natural postion) and many better centers overall . So basically that doesnt put him on the elite level of players as you think he is.

So basically, offensively skilled doesnt exactly adress the essential ability Centers should have. And it doesnt mean anything if you dont use your offensive skills efficently. Yes Big Al is very skilled but he never used his skills as good as he is supposed to use. We can include decision making, court vision to the reasons of this.
He was never a good passer in double team or in general, he was never a good mid range jump shooter, he was always a good finisher close to the rim but not an effective scorer.
He can score 25 ppg if he makes more attempts, but that wont make him the best offensive player in the game. And in the defensive end, you cant even count me 5 centers who are worse than him so thats bad. Thats not the type of Center i would like to see in Utah. Plus you miss the details that as much as he scores 20+ ppg, we are not sure how he will be in playoffs? In playoffs teams will close under the rim more, they will make tougher defense, and then you should have many threats to score. Jefferson doesnt have that, he just do best the only thing he does, post up game. But he wont score in many different ways. So i am not sure, if he will score 20+ in playoffs as well or not.

And you are always missing the point, you always argue, if he is good or not, i dont say he is bad, i just say, he isnt as good as a 14 million per year player should be.

Man, we aren't talking about who is the best overall centre. The argument started with you claiming Kanter would be at LEAST as good offensively as Big Al, and I along with other posters are simply asking "kay, so who in the NBA is better offensively than Al Jefferson?" As you're probably realizing, there is really not that many; in fact I'd maybe slot only 3 ahead of him for PF/Cs in general. Were not talking the overall package, were talking strictly offense.

But if you say Big Al is top 5 in the offensive book, i would say, first he should score 20 points in a single playoff game, and lets discuss if he is better offensively than half of these guys above

So since Scola, Love, Griffin, Jordan, Kaman, Lopez, Bogut all didn't make the playoffs last season clearly they must all be garbage on both sides of the floor, right? A teams success should always be measured by a single player? Seriously disagree.