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Do you believe in the afterlife?

Do you believe in the afterlife?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 18 62.1%
  • No.

    Votes: 10 34.5%
  • I believe in reincarnation.

    Votes: 1 3.4%
  • I don't believe in existence.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    29
Near death experience?

Probably the second greatest atheist philosopher of the 20 century (behind only Russel) Ayers had his atheist faith greatly shaken after a nde. I never viewed nde as very convincing but I guess some people do.
 
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Probably the second greatest atheist philosopher of the 20 century (behind only Russel) Ayers had his atheist faith greatly shaken after a nde. I never viewed nde as very convincing but I guess some people do.

I'll take John Dewey over Bertrand Russell any day (not that Russell isn't important). Check out A Common Faith. It's still as relevant today as when it was first written 80 years ago.

As for my views on death and immortality, that's a bit complicated. First, I want to point out that individuals don't seem well-suited to immortality.

In his article "The Makropulos Case: Reflections on the Tedium of Immortality," Bernard Williams argues that rigidity of character would make subjective immortality hopelessly tedious. He cites as an example a character from a play, EM, who has access to a potion that will extend her life indefinitely. After 300 years, EM voluntarily stops drinking the potion in order that she might die. Williams offers the following analysis:

Her trouble was, it seems, boredom: a boredom connected with the fact that everything that could happen and make sense to one particular human being of 42 had already happened to her. Or, rather, all the sorts of things that could make sense to one woman of a certain character; for EM has a certain character, and indeed, except for her accumulating memories of earlier times, and no doubt some changes of style to suit the passing centuries, seems always to have been much the same sort of person.

The deep and abiding problem with immortality is that human beings demand a purpose for their existence, something to which they can meaningfully contribute. Without such a purpose, the profound boredom and apathy which Williams discusses sets in -- not a merely temporary boredom, in which we hope that something tomorrow will grab our attention, but a boredom which leads us inexorably to question the value of our continued existence. For Williams, there is no reason to suppose that there is an interest that could be so utterly absorbing as to occupy a human being for eternity. In any situation he could imagine in which he could live forever, "I would eventually have had altogether too much of myself."

Further, as far as subjective immortality goes (the idea of a soul which continues to have experiences after death) I think it is a bit silly and misses the point, because our personal horizons -- the personal perspective which we identity as "I, myself" -- is devoid of content. It is not a substance which can be saved, or that we can cherish per se. What we cherish is everything which we view within our personal horizons, but not the horizon itself, for we just are the horizon itself. It would be incoherent to speak of an "I" which values my horizon, because it is just the horizon itself doing the valuing. A horizon is the necessary condition of valuing anything at all. And what we finally wish to save is the valued constituents of our consciousness, not the consciousness itself.

It is no wonder, then, that Mark Johnston in his book Surviving Death speaks of such supernaturalism as at best a distraction, and at worst a deadly enemy. Alfred North Whitehead describes the purpose of religion as "stretching individual interest beyond its self-defeating particularity," but the idea of subjective immortality does just the opposite by glorifying the individual while devaluing the world (and God, too, if you happen to believe in God). Along with Williams, I find it impossible to imagine a "heaven" or an afterlife which could satisfy me eternally, especially since on most conceptions I would be divorced from the hustle-and-bustle of the evolving universe. In the end, we are mortal creatures, and though we may all reasonably wish to live somewhat longer than we probably will, it seems perfectly clear that there can be such a thing as living too long.

But I do think there's something that might be called "objective immortality," in which our conscious selves do not survive, and yet our achievements and projects in this world remain for others to take up. As Charles Hartshorne says in his book Omnipotence and Other Theological Mistakes:

Does life end in death? A book ends with its last sentence or last word; however, the book does not become the mere silence or blank page following the word. The book of life is all its "words" (actions, experiences), and these form an imperishable totality... Death is not destruction of the reality we have achieved.

While alive, our morals, interests, and projects are our own. We are books still being written, and it is we who do the writing. But death definitively yanks the quill from our hands, with no possibility for further textual edits. It is often said a book or other work of art is never really finished, but abandoned -- so with death. Once we die, our interests no longer belong to us, but to the world -- and the readers of our own book of life will bring their own interpretations to our experiences and opinions. Some of our "readers" may hopelessly distort and misinterpret our lives and wishes, while others may transform and revitalize them in ways we never could have imagined, and it is the possibility of such creative growth and transformation that gives our lives -- and our deaths -- meaning. The most disconcerting part of all this is, of course, the very fact that we no longer have any control over whether and how our interests are carried forward -- this duty belongs solely to those who survive us. It is not what we thought was most valuable about our own lives that will survive, but what others felt was valuable about us. All knowledge is partial in its own way, and our value to the larger world is precisely in the way that we fill in the gaps of knowledge and experience that others lack. In this sense, at least, we really do live on in the lives of those we have influenced, whether as an inspiration or a rebuke.

Near the end of Surviving Death, Johnston observes:

It would be confused to mourn the bottle of Chateau Margaux 1982 (which is something of a work of art) one has just put away, as opposed to wishing that one had another and another and another. That last wish, as it were for the perpetual return of Chateau Margaux 1982, will not remain very stable in the face of all other wines one might try. Rather than wish for the perpetual return of Chateau Margaux, one might reasonably prefer to sample a wider selection. One might be led to the same view about individual personalities.

Personalities are indeed works of art more complex and valuable than any book or bottle of wine could ever be. But it is in their contextualization within the larger universe that we can see the value of death as a necessary part of the renewal of life. To me the idea of life after death is narcissistic -- it assumes that our conscious selves are too important to stop existing. But it is the experiences that are important, not the consciousness itself, and that will be saved in others in a partial way, as much as the survivors wish to save it. That should be enough.
 
Probably the second greatest atheist philosopher of the 20 century (behind only Russel) Ayers had his atheist faith greatly shaken after a nde. I never viewed nde as very convincing but I guess some people do.

Ever had one?

I have had 2. One of them I don't like to talk about. Let's just say it can be life-altering as nothing else I have ever experienced. Kind of like chemo, you cannot really know what it's like until you have been there.
 
People are astonished musicians get paid? Not surprising

Think about all the things I would rather do than attend your niece's wedding. Take a nap, eat, practice an instrument, **********, poop, etc. If you can find someone to do it for free more power to you, but he/she will certainly suck at playing the organ. I'm providing a service just as the caterer, photographer, and florist are.

(Grumblings from a musician who has done too many things for 'free')
 
People are astonished musicians get paid? Not surprising

Think about all the things I would rather do than attend your niece's wedding. Take a nap, eat, practice an instrument, **********, poop, etc. If you can find someone to do it for free more power to you, but he/she will certainly suck at playing the organ. I'm providing a service just as the caterer, photographer, and florist are.

(Grumblings from a musician who has done too many things for 'free')

Haha. Actually at one of the two weddings, the organist sucked big time. I've never seen an organist either have 0 feel for the rhythm or felt the urge to display virtuosity to disrupt the crowd while singing ;)
Maybe he was also grumbling as he played for free!
 
Don't wait to die. Carpe diem!

First thing I'll do after death in order. Dunk a basketball,(buy a trampoline) hang with John Lennon(you could visit his grave), watch Natalie Portman take a shower(you'll get arrested but whatever), invade the Jazz locker room to see what really goes down(your going to get arrested again), up my rep count(really?), then float around Turley Barracks and haunt people(your going to get arrested a 3rd time but this one is going to be hilarious).
 
Ever had one?

I have had 2. One of them I don't like to talk about. Let's just say it can be life-altering as nothing else I have ever experienced. Kind of like chemo, you cannot really know what it's like until you have been there.


This.

I think the majority of non believers are probably people who haven't had a good enough scare.
 
This.

I think the majority of non believers are probably people who haven't had a good enough scare.

I had a nde, but I have also done psychedelics and I don't think any of the **** I saw while on them was real. Basing your beliefs on an experience you had while your brain was starved for oxygen isn't exactly rational.

A lot of them are also people who weren't loved by their parents (or anyone for that matter) so the idea of a god loving them is too foreign to them.
^this is sarcasm, right?
 
I had a nde, but I have also done psychedelics and I don't think any of the **** I saw while on them was real. Basing your beliefs on an experience you had while your brain was starved for oxygen isn't exactly rational.


^this is sarcasm, right?

What makes you think you know what is rational?


I'm baffled that so many people are so sure they know the absolute truths about our existence..

I'd love to hear what your explanation of life is, and how it all works.


The fact of the matter is, not one human being on the planet can prove squat one way or the other. Anything other than saying you don't know yet, is just guess.
 
What makes you think you know what is rational?


I'm baffled that so many people are so sure they know the absolute truths about our existence..

I'd love to hear what your explanation of life is, and how it all works.


The fact of the matter is, not one human being on the planet can prove squat one way or the other. Anything other than saying you don't know yet, is just guess.

I don't have the answers to absolute questions. I just don't think a near death experience is credible proof either way.
 
A lot of them are also people who weren't loved by their parents (or anyone for that matter) so the idea of a god loving them is too foreign to them.

I thought you wanted a fresh start, then you go and out yourself on the 8th post?

SMD
 
What makes you think you know what is rational?


I'm baffled that so many people are so sure they know the absolute truths about our existence..

I'd love to hear what your explanation of life is, and how it all works.


The fact of the matter is, not one human being on the planet can prove squat one way or the other. Anything other than saying you don't know yet, is just guess.

This is so frustrating.

Of course we don't know everything about everything. That doesn't open the door to making unsubstantiated claims and forcing people to give them credibility.

If one makes a positive claim the burden of proof is on them to provide substance to that claim. Period. End of story.
 
This.

I think the majority of non believers are probably people who haven't had a good enough scare.

That's very insulting...and completely untrue.
 
I don't have the answers to absolute questions. I just don't think a near death experience is credible proof either way.

No a NDE is not credible proof. But during the first of the 2 I have experienced, I saw things that were happening hundreds of miles away at pretty much that exact time, and described them in detail the day I woke up (like 2 days later) as they were still vivid in my mind, and it was confirmed later that what I saw was what had happened. That was strange and fantastic and more than a little scary, and no one I have spoken to can explain it, and neither can I. But it sure affects the way you think about these kinds of things going forward.
 
This is so frustrating.

Of course we don't know everything about everything. That doesn't open the door to making unsubstantiated claims and forcing people to give them credibility.

If one makes a positive claim the burden of proof is on them to provide substance to that claim. Period. End of story.


Not true.

Can you provide substance that proves you love your family? Is the love in your heart something you can measure?

Can science prove every single one of their theories with substance?
 
No a NDE is not credible proof. But during the first of the 2 I have experienced, I saw things that were happening hundreds of miles away at pretty much that exact time, and described them in detail the day I woke up (like 2 days later) as they were still vivid in my mind, and it was confirmed later that what I saw was what had happened. That was strange and fantastic and more than a little scary, and no one I have spoken to can explain it, and neither can I. But it sure affects the way you think about these kinds of things going forward.

I'm not trying to belittle you in any way, but what about your experience validates the existence of god in particular. If we open the door for that couldn't we say that your experience was just some form of magic. We could take from your experience that you have magical powers and we still wouldn't necessarily need the existence of a supreme being to explain it.

PS I believe in magic. Everything that I can't(and nobody else for that matter)explain is magic. Sometimes I wish I lived in a time where more things were magic. When the world was waiting to be discovered. It will likely be millennia(if ever)before humans have the opportunity to embark on such grand adventures again.
 
I attended 2 weddings over here recently. Can definately confirm the getting paid thing. Besides paying a a lot for a 60 min service from the church, you have to pay the organist and choir seperately for appearance. With the organist I'm not sure if he's included in the fee for the church.

I'm not talking about a wedding or special events... I was just talking about a Sunday service type thing. Hard to imagine someone would get paid to play there.
 
I'm not trying to belittle you in any way, but what about your experience validates the existence of god in particular. If we open the door for that couldn't we say that your experience was just some form of magic. We could take from your experience that you have magical powers and we still wouldn't necessarily need the existence of a supreme being to explain it.

PS I believe in magic. Everything that I can't(and nobody else for that matter)explain is magic. Sometimes I wish I lived in a time where more things were magic. When the world was waiting to be discovered. It will likely be millennia(if ever)before humans have the opportunity to embark on such grand adventures again.

I don't equate what I experienced to a supreme being necessarily. I just pointed out that it cannot be explained. Is a supreme being one option, sure it is. It is also an option that we all live in the Matrix. It is also an option that aliens forced me to have that experience. I said of course it isn't definitive, but it cannot be discounted either, and it truly did change the way I view the world. I think I am far more open-minded when it comes to those sorts of things than I was before, as I have personally experienced something that cannot be explained, so why can't others have similar experiences, or why can't other things happen that cannot be explained? It has also allowed me to view other people's beliefs with a much higher degree of tolerance than I could before, for the same reasons. The human brain is unimaginably complex, and capable of so much that we simply cannot understand. Who is to say that it isn't the work of a supreme being? Who is to say that it unequivocally is?
 
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