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Evan McMullin

babe has lost all credibility as any sort of libertarian or lover of our individual liberties through his support of Trump.

You're a fraud, babe. A complete fraud.

He has the most bizarre definition of freedom. Anything that has to do with actual expansion of human rights = progressives pushing us back to some moral dark age. Acceptance of the status quo and working toward incremental fixes to problems = hivemind slavery to the world order elites.

White supremacists right to believe in racial superiority, and insurance companies rejecting those with pre-existing conditions = LET FREEDOM RING!
 
Based on my own observations among family and friends and co-workers and such - Trump will easily win the state. People talk about voting for McMillan or Johnson as they believe that makes them look a little better in the eyes of others, but when it gets right down to it, they will vote Republican. Many in my world apparently believe that God is a Republican, and voting any other way is going against God. When it gets right down to it, they will trust God and vote Trump. And I really doubt that my acquaintances are unique. They may say one thing to a pollster, but they will vote another.
 
Based on my own observations among family and friends and co-workers and such - Trump will easily win the state. People talk about voting for McMillan or Johnson as they believe that makes them look a little better in the eyes of others, but when it gets right down to it, they will vote Republican. Many in my world apparently believe that God is a Republican, and voting any other way is going against God. When it gets right down to it, they will trust God and vote Trump. And I really doubt that my acquaintances are unique. They may say one thing to a pollster, but they will vote another.
This is the shy Trump voter theory. It didn’t hold true in the Republican primaries, although, admittedly, the Trump brand is more toxic now than it was as recently as last May. Maybe Utah will prove the polls wrong and Trump will win easily. I’ve assumed that would be the result all along as well, however, recent polls showing McMullin even or slightly ahead of Trump do give me some hope that Utah will not give in to mindless partisan voting.

Here’s an article on the lack of shy voting in the primaries:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trump-supporters-probably-arent-lying-to-pollsters/

And a more recent article addressing the theory and it’s likely lack of impact on the general election:

https://time.com/4545399/donald-trump-election-voting-theories/
 
The silver lining of a McMullin candidacy in Utah (not voting for him, BTW), to me, is not the rejection of Trump by the state but, rather, a possible resounding rejection of Hillary Clinton, being the only state where she finishes third. That would indeed be something to be excited about. I realize that's probably not what you intend as you're extolling the virtues of a state influenced by religious and social issues that you'd otherwise look down on, but that's how I see it.

I understand why you'd be suspicious of my "extolling the virtues" of the religious and social issues given that I don't agree with them so I'll expand a little on that.

In my mind, support of those issues and values through a protest vote that has a real power to be meaningful because it affects the map is a very sincere proposition that lacks any cynicism. Our primary choices are very insincere politicians and being a place that demands sincerity is unique and refreshing. It speaks well of the state's character. I will always take the honest push over the dishonest "at least he's one of ours." Utah can be proud of being a peculiar people when the results and the underlying rationale are based in the idea that Trump inflicts too much indignity to reflect the values of the people.

If anything, that is a bridge to more bipartisan cooperation. It proves that the other side isn't evil because they don't tolerate it in their own ranks.
 
I think this is the first time in my life I have not voted Democrat, and I am proud that I voted for mcmullin.
 
I think this is the first time in my life I have not voted Democrat, and I am proud that I voted for mcmullin.

I frankly see nothing in McMullin that you could not have in Romney. However, I turn Kick's logic on the Democrats this year. My chief criticisms of the Democrats consist of moral arguments. While I think the principles which traditionally have given the Cemocratic Party some appeal as an alternative to Tammany Hall corruption of the Republicans is understandable, the ideals of people having actual relevance in the affairs of their government is the chief validating point the Democrats have. This was true in the South during Reconstruction as northerners imposed their moral values on the Southern Whites, taking advantage of the black vote then which was fundamentally based on the Republicans being something other than the southern white folk who would not just accept their humanity. But in overkill on that line, the Democrats then and there did support the Ku Klux Klan, and that exposed the Democratic Party historically to the factual criticism of the Democratic Party being comprised of the worst racists.

Democrats have a way of being the dirtiest pot calling out their opponents on much less valid dirt.

Bill, and now Hillary Clinton, have sold out the little actual validity of the Democratic Party in a huge way, rendering it absolutely morally despicable, with their corruption of their official actions while on the public dollar.

You do well to vote for a McMullin over that.
 
babe has lost all credibility as any sort of libertarian or lover of our individual liberties through his support of Trump.

You're a fraud, babe. A complete fraud.

I thought you had concluded this long ago, way before Trump was even a recognizable name.

baseless as usual, your opinion has little to offer as a guide to a better way forward.
 
He has the most bizarre definition of freedom. Anything that has to do with actual expansion of human rights = progressives pushing us back to some moral dark age. Acceptance of the status quo and working toward incremental fixes to problems = hivemind slavery to the world order elites.

White supremacists right to believe in racial superiority, and insurance companies rejecting those with pre-existing conditions = LET FREEDOM RING!

It's not uncommon for people who have no idea of American values or history to find people who refer to them as somehow bizarre.

Progressivism as it stands today is a real cult in some ways. Trump might be a cult on a personality sort of measure, but progressivism is a cult on the intellectual level. To be a "progressive" you have a very extensive list of absolute virtues you must support without questioning, or you'll be eaten alive by fellow "progressives". The air of superiority over other folks is what progressives share in common, not actual factual reasoning. Progressives today are racist, consistently labelling and dividing people on every conceivable split possible, and are the most intolerant and hating folks on the planet, making ignorant rednecks and stupid "white supremacists" look like benign simple folk who merely have no clue about reality.

Progressives believe they are superior based on their political correctness and literally believe other humans should have no rights whatsoever, and that they have a sort of natural right to rule over everyone.

You cite some pretty shallow basis for your criticism...... an insureance company "right" to pick their insurance risks? where did I ever make a big deal about that? I never thought insurance companies were any kind of virtsue, I believe I should have the power of contract. I could get a better deal on insurance with the most restrictive insurance company on the planet because I have the best health. No government scheme is going to be a benefit to me. I would self-insure rather than deal with an insurance company. Everyone else should assess their own situation and seek some form of insurance they pay for, or turn to real charities like the Mormon Church's and the Catholic Church's. Or maybe to me. If anyone would listen to me on health and lifestyle issues, their needs would diminish quite rapidly.

As for your slanderous slobbering about whte supremacists, I believe that people have innate rights of freedom of assoiciation and nobody has to do what I say. I wonder why some blacks don't create their own traditions of black supremacy like the Pharaohs of Egypt may have done. Well, while I don't really know what happened back then, the legend in the Bible asserts that the children of Abraham were all an inferior class, and were abused as slaves by the Pharaohs.

People having any kind of right to their own opinions, whether stupid or not, is what the US Constitution protected in the Bill of Rights, as freedom of association and freedom of speech. The Progressives of today, quite impressively modeled by the unthinking Kicky of this forum, consistently attack such human rights and seek to render non-progressives and anyone questioning their defined political correctness du jour as subhumans to be eschewed, or thrown into prison as some sort of deplorable stench.

I note just how "inclusive" this forum generally is of opinion that challenges the preferred brand.
 
Been paying a little more attention to this guy. I already voted, but this guy is so much better than any of the other Republican candidates. This guy looks like Noam Chomsky, and Trump looks like a 2nd grade bully with learning disabilities. I've just started learning more about him, but you can tell he's really thought about things like foreign policy (CIA background, etc.). Do it Utah. Show your true colors and vote for McMullin!
 
His remarks in this one clip are more thoughtful, balanced, and wise than any thing Trump has said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2w7XC4ozC4
 
His remarks in this one clip are more thoughtful, balanced, and wise than any thing Trump has said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2w7XC4ozC4


Horrible qualifier. That's like praising a woman's beauty by comparing her to the worlds ugliest dog.
 
Horrible qualifier. That's like praising a woman's beauty by comparing her to the worlds ugliest dog.

In the scheme of things, that's true, but Trump is the nominee. If McMullin had been the Republican nominee, I more than likely would have voted for him. Again, that's not saying much in this election.
 
Interesting article from the Washington Post about McMullin's CIA work:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...0913d68eacb_story.html?utm_term=.20ac93396724

Inside Evan McMullin’s 10 years undercover in the CIA
By Josh Rogin Global Opinions October 30

Conservative independent presidential candidate Evan McMullin is rising in the polls and stands a fair chance of stealing the red state of Utah from GOP nominee Donald Trump. So it’s no surprise that pro-Trump Republicans and others are raising questions about his record as an undercover CIA officer.

Vetting a former spy for the nation’s highest office isn’t easy, considering the classified nature of his government service. This has left McMullin vulnerable to attacks he cannot publicly address. But I interviewed six former CIA officers who worked with McMullin during his 10 years inside the agency. What emerged was a picture of a young case officer who volunteered for duty in the world’s most dangerous places and had a unique talent for recruiting members of extremist organizations as assets.

McMullin joined the CIA as a student trainee while an undergraduate at Brigham Young University. He would alternate semesters between the university and training at CIA headquarters in Langley, Va. During that time, he spent a year in Israel and Jordan learning Arabic. He also worked for a refugee resettlement program run by the United Nations.

After graduating in 2001, McMullin joined the CIA’s directorate of operations, which runs clandestine missions abroad. He was in a computer training class at Langley headquarters when the 9/11 attacks occurred. After that, McMullin’s 18-month training to be an undercover operative was sped up, and he soon found himself in a southwest Asian country where the U.S. military was deeply engaged in the new war on terror. The specific country remains classified to protect his contacts there.

The CIA station chief who supervised McMullin in his first overseas assignment told me that McMullin stood out among all the new case officers because of his insistence on going outside the safe confines of the embassy to meet and develop human- intelligence assets. As a Mormon, McMullin could not indulge in the vices that often help to build such bonds, so he used his piousness and his experience before college as a missionary in Brazil to his advantage.

“He believes in what he says and that’s how he recruited people,” the station chief said. “People fundamentally trust Evan.”

While specific details of McMullin’s missions remain classified, intelligence goals at that time included gathering information on the Taliban, developing intelligence for strikes on terrorists and searching for high-value al-Qaeda leaders, including Osama bin Laden, his former boss said.

Kevin Hulbert, a former senior CIA official in the directorate of operations who worked with McMullin overseas, told me that McMullin’s steady personality, honesty and work ethic reassured potential intelligence sources who were risking their lives to help the United States.

“People who would be assets were drawn to that type of person. They needed to trust that he wouldn’t get them killed,” Hulbert said. “There were a lot of people who took an easier route at the agency. Evan was always in the middle of the fight.”

McMullin served his later years as an undercover officer in Iraq while the U.S. military was battling a brutal Sunni insurgency and collecting intelligence on what was then called al-Qaeda in Iraq but is now the Islamic State. McMullin worked in Iraq until 2010, when the country achieved a degree of stability and the terrorist threat was temporarily minimized.

He resigned from the CIA, attended Wharton Business School and got a job at Goldman Sachs. Subsequently, he worked as a Republican congressional policy staffer. Until August, McMullin was the policy director for the House Republican Conference. Dismayed over how the GOP leadership was equivocating on Trump, he resigned and declared his candidacy for president.

His campaign has garnered national press attention, but McMullin himself had avoided much scrutiny until polls this month showed him virtually even with Trump and Hillary Clinton in Utah. Then the attacks began. Last week, former CIA senior official John Kiriakou, a famous whistleblower who was also imprisoned for revealing classified information, alleged that McMullin’s “history doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.” Pro-Trump Fox News pundit Sean Hannity called McMullin a plant from either the Jeb Bush or Mitt Romney camp. Fox Business Network host Lou Dobbs tweeted that McMullin was a “Mormon Mafia Tool.” Trump called him a puppet who “nobody ever heard of.”

CIA public affairs said it does not disclose personnel information. But retired Gen. Michael Hayden, who was CIA director during three of the years McMullin worked there, told me he independently confirmed McMullin’s account of his service.

“Take it to the bank,” said Hayden. “He did what he said he did.”

Political professionals and pundits often lash out at what they don’t understand; for them McMullin, who spent most of his career in the shadows, is an enigma. The former spy may become the first non-major-party presidential candidate to win a state since 1968 without most of the country coming to know him. That might be his most successful covert operation.
 
Interesting article from the Washington Post about McMullin's CIA work:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...0913d68eacb_story.html?utm_term=.20ac93396724

The guy is uniquely qualified (CIA (terrorism/Middle East minutiae), business/Goldman Sachs (Wharton graduate), congressional staffer, tri-lingual, understands the perspective of other cultures first hand, true patriot) and seems to be incredibly loyal to the U.S. He is the antithesis of Trump in that he sacrificed and was willing to sacrifice it all for his country. He seems to blow both candidates out of the water with respect to character and leadership.
 
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It's not uncommon for people who have no idea of American values or history to find people who refer to them as somehow bizarre.

Progressivism as it stands today is a real cult in some ways. Trump might be a cult on a personality sort of measure, but progressivism is a cult on the intellectual level. To be a "progressive" you have a very extensive list of absolute virtues you must support without questioning, or you'll be eaten alive by fellow "progressives". The air of superiority over other folks is what progressives share in common, not actual factual reasoning. Progressives today are racist, consistently labelling and dividing people on every conceivable split possible, and are the most intolerant and hating folks on the planet, making ignorant rednecks and stupid "white supremacists" look like benign simple folk who merely have no clue about reality.

Progressives believe they are superior based on their political correctness and literally believe other humans should have no rights whatsoever, and that they have a sort of natural right to rule over everyone.

You cite some pretty shallow basis for your criticism...... an insureance company "right" to pick their insurance risks? where did I ever make a big deal about that? I never thought insurance companies were any kind of virtsue, I believe I should have the power of contract. I could get a better deal on insurance with the most restrictive insurance company on the planet because I have the best health. No government scheme is going to be a benefit to me. I would self-insure rather than deal with an insurance company. Everyone else should assess their own situation and seek some form of insurance they pay for, or turn to real charities like the Mormon Church's and the Catholic Church's. Or maybe to me. If anyone would listen to me on health and lifestyle issues, their needs would diminish quite rapidly.

As for your slanderous slobbering about whte supremacists, I believe that people have innate rights of freedom of assoiciation and nobody has to do what I say. I wonder why some blacks don't create their own traditions of black supremacy like the Pharaohs of Egypt may have done. Well, while I don't really know what happened back then, the legend in the Bible asserts that the children of Abraham were all an inferior class, and were abused as slaves by the Pharaohs.

People having any kind of right to their own opinions, whether stupid or not, is what the US Constitution protected in the Bill of Rights, as freedom of association and freedom of speech. The Progressives of today, quite impressively modeled by the unthinking Kicky of this forum, consistently attack such human rights and seek to render non-progressives and anyone questioning their defined political correctness du jour as subhumans to be eschewed, or thrown into prison as some sort of deplorable stench.

I note just how "inclusive" this forum generally is of opinion that challenges the preferred brand.

I love your tendency to label anything you don't like as a "cult". The irony...

"Progressives" try to tackle issues and improve society on the basis of their own values of what is good. It's the same thing you do. You disagree with those values, and that's fine. But you have your values, and I have mine. You have your vision of what the world should be like, and I have mine. You have your own definitions of humans right, and I have mine. If you weren't so ****ing religious about the whole thing, we'd be able to discuss those values and examine their merits. But no way to meaningfully debate with the absolutely convinced.

My criticism of your beliefs was more tongue in cheek. Nonetheless, I don't think all ideas are equal, nor do I think black people forming hate groups is an answer to white supremacy. Like, seriously babe?

But I do agree with the fact that the modern left is very racist and divisive. We could even talk about that if you could stop making slogan-y proclamations about human rights and whathaveyou.
 
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