Game Thread Feb 08, 2024 07:00PM MT: Jazz at Suns

[kabenac]

The most positive thing I saw last night is that he looks huge and fast. The physical and athleticism is there. The shot is there. He needs development. He will start getting it now.

I hope they give him good minutes so he can figure it out. The same with Brice. Let them know their limitations so they can work on them. Hendricks is a beast and needs consistent minutes. Taylor will be a solid defender and scorer and I believe in him.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Taylor did fine last night. It’s about process over results a bit. The 2 curls he got while coming down hill didn’t end well but he strung dribbles together and one of them had KD draped on him… that’s elite length… it’s okay they missed for now. That was something I didn’t even think he’d be attempting right now. He’s way more assertive and active than when he started the year. Hes going to have some good games and bad ones.

Also all the “Hardy hates him and will play Luka over him cuz he’s a bust” talk was real quiet. He’s going to get a shot… he’s going to prove rotation worthy… at very least his value will be higher or preserved from where it is because he’s going to show bright flashes.

 

[fishonjazz]

I remember some posts in here about how with Kessler in the game he kills the jazz offense and how its like 4 vs 5 and a handful of other similar posts.
I decided to try to see if that was true. Not sure im doing this right but here is what I think actually happened in this game.

Jazz offensive rating vs the suns: 114.1 (suns were 128.0)

Kessler offensive rating vs the suns: 174. (best on the team)
collins was second at 149.

Kessler defensive rating was 113 (best on the team)
Kris dunn was second with a 120.

Kessler also with a team best BPM (which I have to admit I don't even know what means) of 9.1

Not really what I was looking for though. I was hoping to find something saying the jazz offensive rating with kessler on court vs with kessler off court in this game. Don't know how to find that though.

Jazz vs Suns, February 8, 2024 | Basketball-Reference.com

UTA (115) vs PHO (129). Get the box score, shot charts and play by play summary of the Jazz vs Suns, February 8, 2024.

www.basketball-reference.com

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I remember some posts in here about how with Kessler in the game he kills the jazz offense and how its like 4 vs 5 and a handful of other similar posts.
I decided to try to see if that was true. Not sure im doing this right but here is what I think actually happened in this game.

Jazz offensive rating vs the suns: 114.1 (suns were 128.0)

Kessler offensive rating vs the suns: 174. (best on the team)
collins was second at 149.

Kessler defensive rating was 113 (best on the team)
Kris dunn was second with a 120.

Kessler also with a team best BPM (which I have to admit I don't even know what means) of 9.1

Not really what I was looking for though. I was hoping to find something saying the jazz offensive rating with kessler on court vs with kessler off court in this game. Don't know how to find that though.

Jazz vs Suns, February 8, 2024 | Basketball-Reference.com

UTA (115) vs PHO (129). Get the box score, shot charts and play by play summary of the Jazz vs Suns, February 8, 2024.

www.basketball-reference.com

There's a difference between half court offense and an overall offensive rating which is going to include fastbreaks, free throws, putbacks etc

 

[fishonjazz]

There's a difference between half court offense and an overall offensive rating which is going to include fastbreaks, free throws, putbacks etc

Ya I wish there was a way to just show half court offense on off.
One thing I think I remember from that game is that the Suns had us beat in fast break points pretty bad.

I consider free throws generated in the half court and putbacks in the half court to be half court offense though.

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[Saint Cy of JFC]

Ya I wish there was a way to just show half court offense on off.
One thing I think I remember from that game is that the Suns had us beat in fast break points pretty bad.

I consider free throws generated in the half court and putbacks in the half court to be half court offense though.

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I'm sure there is something somewhere that parses it out.

I wouldn't consider those things half court offense. They are good and shouldn't be ignored and Walker can certainly help with second chance points,

But simply the quality of looks when Walker is in the game is worse than when he's out and it's magnified when him and Collins play together. Playing offense is just visibly harder for everyone when he is out there, on both ends.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

It's very possible for a non-ballhandling, non-shooting big to have both a great individual ORTG and a negative influence on team ORTG when he's on the floor.

 

[fishonjazz]

It's very possible for a non-ballhandling, non-shooting big to have both a great individual ORTG and a negative influence on team ORTG when he's on the floor.

Exactly. I was looking for the stat that would show it. Have you found it yet?
I watch the games. I can see how Walker would have a negative effect on the offense. But then the offense goes ahead and keeps on scoring while he is in the game. Its kinda like the john collins thing. He plays great so its weird that his great play doesn't help the team but actually hurts it somehow. Kessler sucks individually on offense and mucks things up and clogs the paint yet the offense just keeps on scoring anyways. Just weird stuff.

 

[Elizah Huge]

It's very possible for a non-ballhandling, non-shooting big to have both a great individual ORTG and a negative influence on team ORTG when he's on the floor.

I don’t really understand how that could happen unless the ORTG without that player is some crazy high number.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

I don’t really understand how that could happen unless the ORTG without that player is some crazy high number.

If I recall correctly, Gobert is one guy who's had seasons like this.

 

[fishonjazz]

If I recall correctly, Gobert is one guy who's had seasons like this.

A: We were talking about this particular game not a season.
B: Offensive ratings were almost always amazing with gobert on court vs off court. He was an advanced stats god. And not just for his defense. I think you recalled incorrectly.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

B: Offensive ratings were almost always amazing with gobert on court vs off court. He was an advanced stats god. And not just for his defense. I think you recalled incorrectly.

I don't think I did.

 

[fishonjazz]

I don't think I did.

You did. I had a bunch of discussions with people irl regarding Gobert when he was on the jazz. They were always saying things like "gobert can do anything but dunk. he clogs the paint. he cant shoot. he cant even make layups" but the fact was gobert played hella minutes and the jazz literally had the #1 offense in the entire nba. If he was in fact hurting the offense like you claim then it would be impossible to have the best offense in the nba with him playing so many minutes no?

 

[fishonjazz]

I would like to get Cy's take on this one.

@Saint Cy of JFC do you remember if Gobert had a negative influence on team ORTG when he was on the floor with the jazz?

 

[HermanG]

ORTG is a team rating even if you are looking at that stat for a single individual. All 5 players on the court earn the same rating even though they dont contribute equally.

So individual players rating doesnt actually tell about his impact, but about the fact that the lineups where he plays work well on offense.

Individual players contribution can be measure using counting stats, effectiveness and some advanced stats like on/off to some extent.

On/off can be a bit deceptive as you gotta look also who that player usually subs for.

 

[fishonjazz]

ORTG is a team rating even if you are looking at that stat for a single individual. All 5 players on the court earn the same rating even though they dont contribute equally.

So individual players rating doesnt actually tell about his impact, but about the fact that the lineups where he plays work well on offense.

Individual players contribution can be measure using counting stats, effectiveness and some advanced stats like on/off to some extent.

On/off can be a bit deceptive as you gotta look also who that player usually subs for.

Ya the main thing I noticed (I started paying more attention after seeing certain posts) was that Kessler was in the game and the ball was going in the hoop a lot. I think that is what matters most.
I think some times we get a little caught up with thinking because Kessler can't shoot he is hurting spacing and that is hurting the offense but we might forget that he is a big body for screens and he (and players like him) provides a different kind of spacing. His man can't leave him to close out on a shooter when he is near the paint or a dunk will be given up or great offensive rebound positioning will be given up.
I saw multiple times when I was paying close attention where a jazz player would get a good look at a shot from the outside and Kessler man would leave him to go close out which would burn the defense for a kessler dunk or offensive rebound, or Kessler's defender would be unwilling to leave Kessler alone in the pant so they decided to give up the three (which we unfortunately often missed in this particular game).

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[KqWIN]

Ok we all deserve a little **** for hyping up our favorite prospects too much. We all do it.

“Strung dribbles together”

Haha

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I would like to get Cy's take on this one.

@Saint Cy of JFC do you remember if Gobert had a negative influence on team ORTG when he was on the floor with the jazz?

Gobert was extremely good at the offense and Utah was a PNR heavy team. Huge difference.

 

[KqWIN]

Just so we're clear, there are two kinds of "ORTG" that get thrown around. One is what is seen on nba.com/stats which is literally the team's offensive rating when that player on the court. The other used to (maybe it's still there) be surfaced on bball-ref and was an estimation of a player's impact on offense. It's basically win shares. In other words, it essentially useless. But people often compare often to oranges with these two things. The first calculation is the only one that has use.

Here are some numbers on Gobert's time with the Jazz:

The Jazz were better with him on offense six out of 9 years including six out of the last 7.

His offensive RAPM, which only uses lineup data and no stats and accounts for teammate performance, was positive his last 7 years with the Jazz....peaking at 21st overall in the league his last year with the Jazz.

His BPM, which uses box score stats to estimate RAPM, was positive his last 8 years with the Jazz and quite good throughout.

His EPM, which uses RAPM and box score stats, was positive all 5 years the statistic has been produced for.

 

[fishonjazz]

Gobert was extremely good at the offense and Utah was a PNR heavy team. Huge difference.

Exactly. So in the discussion I was having about whether Gobert hurt the jazz offense or not you would say that he did not hurt the jazz offense. I agree with you.