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Hardy Says Collins is a 5

The odd thing is that Collins has been terrible from 2FG without Kessler on the floor and good when they are both on the court together. Perhaps that’s just statistical noise….but either way, I think the only way to revive John Collins is to use him in a lot of PnR’s….but we are not a heavy PnR team.
 
KqWIN said:
The odd thing is that Collins has been terrible from 2FG without Kessler on the floor and good when they are both on the court together. Perhaps that’s just statistical noise….but either way, I think the only way to revive John Collins is to use him in a lot of PnR’s….but we are not a heavy PnR team.
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We also have zero PnR point guards. Its fine to add guys on a talent basis but if they make 80M over 3 years make sure they fit at least a little.
 
This is interesting. I like how open Hardy is with the media and how willing he is to admit mistakes and change. Some of this stuff should have been obvious before we got through a quarter of a season, but it is what it is.

Personally I don't think of Collins as a 5, just because of how poorly his defense is at the 5. If you remove that, offensively he is obviously better next to shooting bigs that give him space. It might be interesting to see him next to Hendricks more and see how they play together in extended minutes.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
We also have zero PnR point guards. Its fine to add guys on a talent basis but if they make 80M over 3 years make sure they fit at least a little.
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Eh….I would say that most of our PG’s could be considered “PnR” guys…they just haven’t been very good for the most part. Something about this season just hasn’t worked out. Kessler has also seen a massive drop in his efficiency and I don’t really think it’s the presence of Collins (though it could be the absence of KO).

Obviously Mike was really good for us last year and more of a pass first guy….but even when he was out the Jazz were running smoothly. JC has dropped off a cliff after being a decent playmaker last year. Perhaps that was not reality and what we’re seeing now is….but overall I just think this team has gone backwards in how they play together in both ends.

Our talent is bad…but we shouldn’t be THIS bad. I actually think part of the problem is that Collins does not change his role whether he’s at the four or the five. When he’s at the five, we’re not doing a heavy PnR game with him rolling to the basket. Instead, he’s still standing around in the corner mostly while we play 5 out. Hell, we do this even with Kessler sometimes. I think it’s a bad decision to play 5 out instead of having a player be at the basket….especially with our less than stellar guards.
 
Don’t know why people care about semantics so much. This is just about playing Collins with or without Kessler.
 
KqWIN said:
Eh….I would say that most of our PG’s could be considered “PnR” guys…they just haven’t been very good for the most part. Something about this season just hasn’t worked out. Kessler has also seen a massive drop in his efficiency and I don’t really think it’s the presence of Collins (though it could be the absence of KO).

Obviously Mike was really good for us last year and more of a pass first guy….but even when he was out the Jazz were running smoothly. JC has dropped off a cliff after being a decent playmaker last year. Perhaps that was not reality and what we’re seeing now is….but overall I just think this team has gone backwards in how they play together in both ends.

Our talent is bad…but we shouldn’t be THIS bad. I actually think part of the problem is that Collins does not change his role whether he’s at the four or the five. When he’s at the five, we’re not doing a heavy PnR game with him rolling to the basket. Instead, he’s still standing around in the corner mostly while we play 5 out. Hell, we do this even with Kessler sometimes. I think it’s a bad decision to play 5 out instead of having a player be at the basket….especially with our less than stellar guards.
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Hard disagree on the PG's being PnR guys. None shoot well off the dribble... JC has done okay in the past but struggled this year... and none are great passers. Its just an easy play to defend.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Hard disagree on the PG's being PnR guys. None shoot well off the dribble... JC has done okay in the past but struggled this year... and none are great passers. Its just an easy play to defend.
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Well, what are they then? They are not very good, but they are all guys who want to dominate the ball but also cannot create a shot on their own. For all of them, their preferred way to play is in PnR. THT is easily the worst shooter, but also by far the most reliant on PnR imo.
 
All I know is I’d be willing to trade Collins to some contender for a 2034 top31 to 59 protected. I don’t see us trading him to anyone for any value what so ever. Why didn’t the jazz see this as the hawks were pleading us to take him for Rudy Gay. Danny is even more senile than me. He’s lost his damn mind.
 
KqWIN said:
Well, what are they then? They are not very good, but they are all guys who want to dominate the ball but also cannot create a shot on their own. For all of them, their preferred way to play is in PnR. THT is easily the worst shooter, but also by far the most reliant on PnR imo.
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LOL so because they suck at other things they are good in PnR?
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
LOL so because they suck at other things they are good in PnR?
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I literally said they are bad at it. Did you just choose to skip that both times? I don't know why you outwardly ignore that. Literally spelled out in plain english and you still ignore it and say I said the direct opposite.

If you brought a random G-League PG who is a PnR in the NBA and he's not good enough, he's still a PnR player he's just not good at it. We have PnR players, they just aren't good.
 
KqWIN said:
I literally said they are bad at it. Did you just choose to skip that both times? I don't know why you outwardly ignore that. Literally spelled out in plain english and you still ignore it and say I said the direct opposite.

If you brought a random G-League PG who is a PnR in the NBA and he's not good enough, he's still a PnR player he's just not good at it. We have PnR players, they just aren't good.
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Yeah I read it. I didn't think I really needed to clarify we don't have good pick and roll players when I said we don't have PnR players but sure. You asked a question about what they are... well if they aren't good at pick and roll and thats the thing they are best at... you answer the question.

the original statement was a response to why I don't think its really going to work to give Collins a bunch of PnR... if the ball handlers suck at it then what will be the result?

If I said Kirilenko is not a shooter... I don't care that he prefers to score that way... if he sucks at it... he is not a shooter.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Yeah I read it. I didn't think I really needed to clarify we don't have good pick and roll players when I said we don't have PnR players but sure. You asked a question about what they are... well if they aren't good at pick and roll and thats the thing they are best at... you answer the question.

the original statement was a response to why I don't think its really going to work to give Collins a bunch of PnR... if the ball handlers suck at it then what will be the result?

If I said Kirilenko is not a shooter... I don't care that he prefers to score that way... if he sucks at it... he is not a shooter.
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To me, being a PnR means you play PnR....doesn't mean you are good at it. That's what was meant by, "they are PnR players, they are just bad at it". If you read those words, I have no idea how you could interpret that as me saying they are good at PnR. I don't care about semantics....but if you're going to use your own definition of what it means to be a PnR player, please do not spin it to try and make me say the direct opposite of what I had said. If I say they are bad at it, it probably means I think that they are bad at it.

With that in place, what is the result if you do not put them in PnR? It's also bad. I don't see the alternative that works better. The guards are all ball dominant players who are not effective off the ball. For John Collins in particular, I think it's quite clear that his skillset is best utilized as a PnR man. When I look at this group of guys, I think the optimal way to play (again, compared to themselves), is to put John Collins in PnR with one of our guards. This is especially true when Collins is playing the 5 without Kessler. He's not playing with Trae Young, but playing without a big should also open up these PnR opportunities that he did not get playing alongside Capela and Okongwu.
 
KqWIN said:
To me, being a PnR means you play PnR....doesn't mean you are good at it. That's what was meant by, "they are PnR players, they are just bad at it". If you read those words, I have no idea how you could interpret that as me saying they are good at PnR. I don't care about semantics....but if you're going to use your own definition of what it means to be a PnR player, please do not spin it to try and make me say the direct opposite of what I had said. If I say they are bad at it, it probably means I think that they are bad at it.
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If I say a guy is a shooter it means he is a good capable shooter. If I say a guy isn't a PnR player just go ahead and insert the good in there... its not that hard.

KqWIN said:
With that in place, what is the result if you do not put them in PnR? It's also bad. I don't see the alternative that works better. The guards are all ball dominant players who are not effective off the ball. For John Collins in particular, I think it's quite clear that his skillset is best utilized as a PnR man. When I look at this group of guys, I think the optimal way to play (again, compared to themselves), is to put John Collins in PnR with one of our guards. This is especially true when Collins is playing the 5 without Kessler. He's not playing with Trae Young, but playing without a big should also open up these PnR opportunities that he did not get playing alongside Capela and Okongwu.
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Getting good PnR opportunities will depend on the quality of the players feeding the roll man... again not that hard. None of the guys are well equipped to provide that.
 
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