Hardy Says Collins is a 5

[KqWIN]

If I say a guy is a shooter it means he is a good capable shooter. If I say a guy isn't a PnR player just go ahead and insert the good in there... its not that hard.


Getting good PnR opportunities will depend on the quality of the players feeding the roll man... again not that hard. None of the guys are well equipped to provide that.

You can say it means whatever you want to yourself. I am not the police. But don't tell me I said they were good at PnR when I directly said that they are bad at it lol. It's not hard to understand that when I say they are bad, I mean they are bad.

I agree, they are not great in PnR (as I've said over and over and over again now). But what is the alternative? Not like what we're doing is producing great offense.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

You can say it means whatever you want to yourself. I am not the police. But don't tell me I said they were good at PnR when I directly said that they are bad at it lol. It's not hard to understand that when I say they are bad, I mean they are bad.

relax man... it was the phrasing of "if they aren't PnR players what are they?" They do other things less bad... which is why Hardy has them doing those.

I agree, they are not great in PnR (as I've said over and over and over again now). But what is the alternative? Not like what we're doing is producing great offense.

Other stuff. Ramrodding a John Collins PnR with bad PnR guards isn't some panacea that will save his value. The purpose of the season isn't to save John's value. Honestly its a fool's errand.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/ball-handler?dir=D&sort=TEAM_ABBREVIATION

JC is 50 percentile
Key is 11
Dunn 10
THT 18
Sexton 38

These stats dont account for assist out of the PNR?

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Well, what are they then? They are not very good, but they are all guys who want to dominate the ball but also cannot create a shot on their own. For all of them, their preferred way to play is in PnR. THT is easily the worst shooter, but also by far the most reliant on PnR imo.

There's more to basketball than just PNR and ISO.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

relax man... it was the phrasing of "if they aren't PnR players what are they?" They do other things less bad... which is why Hardy has them doing those.

Other stuff. Ramrodding a John Collins PnR with bad PnR guards isn't some panacea that will save his value. The purpose of the season isn't to save John's value. Honestly its a fool's errand.

Is there any way to isolate the PNR numbers among ball handlers w/ Collins on and Walker off? Collins has a solid 1.24 PPP on PNR this year, so someone is doing a decent job of setting him up.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

These stats dont account for assist out of the PNR?

They show Turnover frequency but not assist unless I missed a column.

 

[KqWIN]

relax man... it was the phrasing of "if they aren't PnR players what are they?" They do other things less bad... which is why Hardy has them doing those.

Other stuff. Ramrodding a John Collins PnR with bad PnR guards isn't some panacea that will save his value. The purpose of the season isn't to save John's value. Honestly its a fool's errand.

What other stuff though? Hardy does have them running a of PnR, just not with Collins and spaced floor. I'm not sure they really do other things less bad. They are just not the best players to begin with.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

My eye test says the biggest issue with the PNR this year is more the spacing being really bad early on., not the quality of guard play. Not that the guard play for PNR is good, but I dont think it has been the limiting factor.

Of course some of that spacing comes back on the guards, but it was also a team issue that they seem to have gotten better at on the whole.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Is there any way to isolate the PNR numbers among ball handlers w/ Collins on and Walker off? Collins has a solid 1.24 PPP on PNR this year, so someone is doing a decent job of setting him up.

Not that I have access to.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

What other stuff though? Hardy does have them running a of PnR, just not with Collins and spaced floor. I'm not sure they really do other things less bad. They are just not the best players to begin with.

Just because you run a PNR doesnt mean it gets counted as a PNR play. The stats are for shots that come directly out of the PNR. The Jazz guards just arent running a single PNR and getting a good shot. They might run a PNR that leads to another action that shifts the defense, that leads to another action, then a scoring attempt. That's the gist of what Hardy wants, ball and player movement. It's what every coach wants when they dont have the high end talented shot creators.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

What other stuff though? Hardy does have them running a of PnR, just not with Collins and spaced floor. I'm not sure they really do other things less bad. They are just not the best players to begin with.

Other basketball stuff. Again, if we had the personnel to run a bunch of Collins PnR with a spaced floor it might goose his numbers. We also might bleed points and lose games. Hardy is trying to win games not improve Collins value. Its the problem with Collins that I and others kind of identified from the day the trade happened.

 

[KqWIN]

Just because you run a PNR doesnt mean it gets counted as a PNR play. The stats are for shots that come directly out of the PNR. The Jazz guards just arent running a single PNR and getting a good shot. They might run a PNR that leads to another action that shifts the defense, that leads to another action, then a scoring attempt. That's the gist of what Hardy wants, ball and player movement. It's what every coach wants when they dont have the high end talented shot creators.

I'm not talking about what gets recorded on paper. I'm just saying, Collins as the screen setter and roller is good and I want to see it more. I think it's better for both the guards and Collins.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I'm not talking about what gets recorded on paper. I'm just saying, Collins as the screen setter and roller is good and I want to see it more. I think it's better for both the guards and Collins.

I think once Hardy nails down the rotation with Collins off the bench it will get better. Eventually George will get back and Dunn will get no minutes again (Dunn ruins the PNR play both as the guard or off the ball).

 

[fishonjazz]

What other stuff though? Hardy does have them running a of PnR, just not with Collins and spaced floor. I'm not sure they really do other things less bad. They are just not the best players to begin with.

A couple of things I have seen sexton do well are he cuts without the ball and if his teammate finds him and delivers a pass then he finishes well.

He also has been catching and shooting from deep well.

Also plays a little bully ball sometimes (despite his diminutive stature) in a semi post kinda way and knocks down baby hook/floater type shots

And he is good at getting into the mid range and knocking down shots.

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

 

[KqWIN]

Other basketball stuff. Again, if we had the personnel to run a bunch of Collins PnR with a spaced floor it might goose his numbers. We also might bleed points and lose games. Hardy is trying to win games not improve Collins value. Its the problem with Collins that I and others kind of identified from the day the trade happened.

We're one of the worse offenses in the league, so it's not like we're risking a lot by changing things. I think there's opportunity to do a little bit more PnR and specifically when it comes to Collins at the 5. Hardy has sided with using Collins as a spacing 5 more than a rolling 5 around the basket. I think it benefits all parties to use the good roll man as a roll man.

 

[fishonjazz]

We're one of the worse offenses in the league, so it's not like we're risking a lot by changing things. I think there's opportunity to do a little bit more PnR and specifically when it comes to Collins at the 5. Hardy has sided with using Collins as a spacing 5 more than a rolling 5 around the basket. I think it benefits all parties to use the good roll man as a roll man.

I saw a nice pick and roll with Collins last night (I think it was sexton making the pass) where he rolled to the hoop and got a great pass. Missed the dunk though (got swatted/maybe fouled)

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[Handlogten's Heros]

We're one of the worse offenses in the league, so it's not like we're risking a lot by changing things. I think there's opportunity to do a little bit more PnR and specifically when it comes to Collins at the 5. Hardy has sided with using Collins as a spacing 5 more than a rolling 5 around the basket. I think it benefits all parties to use the good roll man as a roll man.

Sure... run it a few more times or whatever. BUT if the floor isn't spaced I don't see teams having a real hard time with it. If the ballhandler isn't a threat to shoot off the dribble you can drop the big or just have the guard duck under the pick. Maybe its better than what they are running.

 

[Chargers Jazz Angels]

People?

This is Will Hardy, the head coach.

You have to forgive me. I posted that after a 12 hour straight drive from California to Utah because my mother-in-law was in the hospital with pneumonia. Probably didn't come out as consise as I wanted it too.

 

[NAOS_pt2]

I've been avalanched with work for the last few weeks, so my attention has been diverted from the Jazz. Can someone who has been watching closely tell me if Hardy is running some of the wrinkles explained in this video? It seems like this dribble handoff into the PnR would be helpful to our guards.

 

[KqWIN]

Sure... run it a few more times or whatever. BUT if the floor isn't spaced I don't see teams having a real hard time with it. If the ballhandler isn't a threat to shoot off the dribble you can drop the big or just have the guard duck under the pick. Maybe its better than what they are running.

There's not a high bar to clear in the first place, and whatever these "other things" are, they are also effected by poor spacing.