I just think it's funny

[VINYLONE]

We were one win from being a two seed last year. The 2008 team almost... The 2007 team would have...

Wait, what? You're idea of "backing yourself up" is by bringing up how the Jazz consistently failed to accomplish or advance? Is that really what you're trying to do here, Babyfeld?

 

[Sloanfeld]

-2006-07 - Western Conference Finals (as in: 1 step away from the Finals) - and if Robert Horry doesn't body check Steve Nash into the scorer's table - it's likely Utah faces a Phoenix squad they beat 3/4 times instead of San Antonio in the WCF and then go on to beat that dreadful Cleveland team.

-2007-08 - Conference semifinals, Game 5 at Staples Center - the game everyone forgets, but the Jazz were one increbile Steve Javie/Bob Delaney-screw job away from taking a 3-2 lead over THEE LOS ANGELES LAKERS, with Game 6 back in SLC. Most analysts agreed that series was the real conference finals.

-2008-09 - Season got derailed twice, first when Deron sprained his ankle in preseason and didn't regain form until January, then when Boozer injured his knee and missed 45 games. Then they had to face the Lakers - w/out Mehmet Okur for essentially the entire series.

-2009-10 - Got hot in midseason and were on an incredible 17-2 stretch, when they traded away Ronnie Brewer - which didn't affect the team until AK injured his calf with 16 games remaining in the season - and was lost for virtually the rest of the season/playoffs. Then Okur blows his achilles in Game 1, beat Denver but not enough weapons left to finish games against LA even though they had great chances (Game 1: 4-point lead with 2 minutes left at Staples, Game 3: 2-point lead w/30 seconds left).


So you see 2 years where the Jazz were 1 step away from making The Finals, and 2 years where injuries and lack of roster improvement prevented them from taking that next step. (If healthy it's likely they don't make it regardless, but injuries really robbed them of the opportunity to take that next step).

Due to injuries/age of Boozer, I agree with the decision to let him walk for 6 yrs $75 million. However, the fact is those were still some darn good Jazz teams that were pretty close to the ultimate goal.

Jazz fans will be lucky to experience that type of success from this new rebuilding effort. For every OKC, there are a dozen rebuilding failures. There are just too many unknowns to think the Jazz are in a better position now than they were 3 years ago.
It's like spending $500 on lottery tickets instead of spending $500 on savings bonds. You now have a chance at striking it rich, but that doesn't mean you're more financially successful.

I was waiting for you man, at least somebody else gets it.

Wait, what? You're idea of "backing yourself up" is by bringing up how the Jazz consistently failed to accomplish or advance? Is that really what you're trying to do here, Babyfeld?

I was proving the point that we were in contention for the championship. Read slice's post, maybe it will make some sense to you.


Also, I give credit to gregbroncs and r00t, I mean at least they present an argument. Tools like Vinylone, LogGrad, and siromar just say the same old crap and rarely, if ever, back it up.

 

[gregbroncs]

Yup, two missed three's from sending game six to overtime, and one bs call in game five where we could have had a chance to tie it. Of course, I do remember most people on this board bitching about how Kobe averaged 11 free throws per game. Funny how at the time they blamed the refs, but just now admit the team wasn't good enough. Gotta love people who change their opinions depending on what they are arguing.

And I'd still really love to know why nobody else had a genius idea of blowing up the team in previous seasons since, according to many of you, we weren't a contender. Any takers on that one?

I started saying 2 years ago this team needed changes. That's 2 years before this season ever started. I wanted to trade either Boozer or Memo then and rework the pieces around the one that they kept. I have been saying since the year after the WCF run that we were not a contender and begging for real change. Here we are years later and I'm finally getting it. I did not want Deron to go. But they waited so damn long that they pretty much had no choice now.

 

[gregbroncs]

-2006-07 - Western Conference Finals (as in: 1 step away from the Finals) - and if Robert Horry doesn't body check Steve Nash into the scorer's table - it's likely Utah faces a Phoenix squad they beat 3/4 times instead of San Antonio in the WCF and then go on to beat that dreadful Cleveland team.

-2007-08 - Conference semifinals, Game 5 at Staples Center - the game everyone forgets, but the Jazz were one increbile Steve Javie/Bob Delaney-screw job away from taking a 3-2 lead over THEE LOS ANGELES LAKERS, with Game 6 back in SLC. Most analysts agreed that series was the real conference finals.

-2008-09 - Season got derailed twice, first when Deron sprained his ankle in preseason and didn't regain form until January, then when Boozer injured his knee and missed 45 games. Then they had to face the Lakers - w/out Mehmet Okur for essentially the entire series.

-2009-10 - Got hot in midseason and were on an incredible 17-2 stretch, when they traded away Ronnie Brewer - which didn't affect the team until AK injured his calf with 16 games remaining in the season - and was lost for virtually the rest of the season/playoffs. Then Okur blows his achilles in Game 1, beat Denver but not enough weapons left to finish games against LA even though they had great chances (Game 1: 4-point lead with 2 minutes left at Staples, Game 3: 2-point lead w/30 seconds left).


So you see 2 years where the Jazz were 1 step away from making The Finals, and 2 years where injuries and lack of roster improvement prevented them from taking that next step. (If healthy it's likely they don't make it regardless, but injuries really robbed them of the opportunity to take that next step).

Due to injuries/age of Boozer, I agree with the decision to let him walk for 6 yrs $75 million. However, the fact is those were still some darn good Jazz teams that were pretty close to the ultimate goal.

Jazz fans will be lucky to experience that type of success from this new rebuilding effort. For every OKC, there are a dozen rebuilding failures. There are just too many unknowns to think the Jazz are in a better position now than they were 3 years ago.
It's like spending $500 on lottery tickets instead of spending $500 on savings bonds. You now have a chance at striking it rich, but that doesn't mean you're more financially successful.

3 things. 1st in 07-08 we did almost win, I still had hope then. But we lost to that Laker team without Bynum. Not a good sign for the future.

2nd is 08-09 Forgive me if I'm miss remembering. But your supposed 2nd time the season got derailed. We won more without Boozer than with, it was his return that derailed that season not his injury.

Last year. They won the same % of games without Brewer as with. The injury to Memo was critical but why would we believe that the same team from the year before had a chance against a still great Laker team when they put up barely a fight the year before? And they may have been close in 2 games. BUT THEY GOT SWEPT. No series is close if you get swept. And I don't believe for a second that Memo makes enough of a difference to change the ultimate outcome. Maybe they win 2 games if he is there. Or maybe the defensive ineptitude of Boozer/Memo together makes that series completely embarrassing.

Those teams never once beat a real contender in a series. Every time they faced a real contender they were beaten soundly. With the exception of the year that the Lakers had one of their big guys injured.

 

[freakazoid]

That people try to justify the blowing up of this franchise by saying that the Deron/Boozer era was going nowhere. Um, excuse me, but THIS ERA is going nowhere. We were a contender and that's hard to build. I suspect a very long rebuilding process to become a contender again.

Enjoy your false hope and lottery picks, Sloanfidels.

Dude, I've had your back around here, when it comes to Boozer.


The truth is, Deron wasn't going to stay here, unless this team was a contender. As much as I think Boozer is/was a stud, our FO saw the writing on the wall. Boozer wasn't going to get us there, and the injury concern was legitimate. They took a big risk by letting him go(I have no doubt they tried to trade him), but they came up huge with Jefferson. NOT as big of a gimme as some people think. Utah ended up about 5th highest in the league, salary wise, when they traded that exception for big Al. The gamble didn't pay off like they hoped. Then again, I give credit for being pro-active. Deron was on the way out, and Utah made the best of it. Yes, it will probably be a long road back, but it's better than riding Deron into the grave, and then climbing our way out for 20 years.


BTW - Deron won't stay in Jersey, unless they pick up a big name. Then maybe.

 

[Sloanfeld]

Dude, I've had your back around here, when it comes to Boozer.


The truth is, Deron wasn't going to stay here, unless this team was a contender. As much as I think Boozer is/was a stud, our FO saw the writing on the wall. Boozer wasn't going to get us there, and the injury concern was legitimate. They took a big risk by letting him go(I have no doubt they tried to trade him), but they came up huge with Jefferson. NOT as big of a gimme as some people think. Utah ended up about 5th highest in the league, salary wise, when they traded that exception for big Al. The gamble didn't pay off like they hoped. Then again, I give credit for being pro-active. Deron was on the way out, and Utah made the best of it. Yes, it will probably be a long road back, but it's better than riding Deron into the grave, and then climbing our way out for 20 years.

I agree, we know the real mistakes were made with not trading AK and extending Memo, but all I'm trying to say here is that those teams WERE contender.

 

[VINYLONE]

3 things. 1st in 07-08 we did almost win, I still had hope then. But we lost to that Laker team without Bynum. Not a good sign for the future.

2nd is 08-09 Forgive me if I'm miss remembering. But your supposed 2nd time the season got derailed. We won more without Boozer than with, it was his return that derailed that season not his injury.

Last year. They won the same % of games without Brewer as with. The injury to Memo was critical but why would we believe that the same team from the year before had a chance against a still great Laker team when they put up barely a fight the year before? And they may have been close in 2 games. BUT THEY GOT SWEPT. No series is close if you get swept. And I don't believe for a second that Memo makes enough of a difference to change the ultimate outcome. Maybe they win 2 games if he is there. Or maybe the defensive ineptitude of Boozer/Memo together makes that series completely embarrassing.

Those teams never once beat a real contender in a series. Every time they faced a real contender they were beaten soundly. With the exception of the year that the Lakers had one of their big guys injured.

I was waiting for you man, at least somebody else gets it.

 

[freakazoid]

I agree, we know the real mistakes were made with not trading AK and extending Memo, but all I'm trying to say here is that those teams WERE contender.

Hind sight is 20/20.

Trading AK for Marion MIGHT have been a good move. One reason and one reason only. We could've cleared that money from the books, and put it on another player. Shawn Marion was never a positive for this team. He wouldn't have stayed. Hard to say who we could have had, but that's neither here nor there. Morris Peterson was a player many Jazz fans bitched about when the Hornets overpaid for him. I'm still glad we didn't make that mistake.

Memo is different. Without the career ending injury, Memo is still relevant. My 2 cents.

Also, it's silly to claim that we are a contender without AK. If you want to make that claim, you have to say who we have in his place. I'm getting sick of the people yapping about how great this team would be without such and such.

Yes, we all hate AK, and we all hate CJ. We would be better with Bell and Evans playing 40 minutes a night.

 

[m3at]

We're going nowhere this season... But we are going somewhere,the fact of the matter is you can't build around a PG (D Rose may prove me wrong) and win championships, we had our out so we took it. The truth is, we are in a tremendous position (probably better than any other team in the league) to build a contender from scratch

D Rose has more talent around him than dwill/booz ever had.

 

[Kenwood]

Going back a ways (now that it's my daytime), I understand that the Jazz had their chances in some of those series (2008 against the Lakers probably the best example). I get that. But the fact remains that in four shots against teams that I consider to be real contenders (three were champs and one lost in the Finals), they didn't win any of them. They didn't even force deciding games. Even with injuries and bad calls, true contenders come through against other contenders once in a while. I thought the Jazz were contenders in 2007 and 2008, but by 2009 I didn't really think so any more.

I also get that injuries played a part. They were injured in the regular season and that contributed to lower seeds and loss of homecourt, but that's still part of the team. I won't use that as an excuse for not blowing up the team because it was part of the fact pattern every year. Injuries to AK or Boozer or whomever caused lower seedings, but I didn't see that as likely to change, so letting Boozer or some of the others go wasn't that big a deal to me.

Trading Deron was different - a gutsy move trading a top player, not a fringe player or a very good player who played 2/3 of the time. If they could prove that he would have walked in 2012, maybe they look smart, but they can't prove that (eeven though most of us feared it). Instead, we just have to see what the Jazz get out of Favors, the NJ pick and the GS pick. It could be good, or not.

 

[freakazoid]

Trading Deron was different - a gutsy move trading a top player, not a fringe player or a very good player who played 2/3 of the time. If they could prove that he would have walked in 2012, maybe they look smart, but they can't prove that (eeven though most of us feared it). Instead, we just have to see what the Jazz get out of Favors, the NJ pick and the GS pick. It could be good, or not.

What?

Kenwood?

What the hell? Last I heard you made a case for not trading our exception for AL Jeffererson.

It was sensible, and completely reasonable, and about 15 years ago.


Where the hell have you been?







Please come back.

 

[Revolution 9]

I think it's funny you're still in love with a Loozer.

 

[Kenwood]

What?

Kenwood?

What the hell? Last I heard you made a case for not trading our exception for AL Jeffererson.

It was sensible, and completely reasonable, and about 15 years ago.


Where the hell have you been?







Please come back.

Sorry...I've been busy and barely had time to follow the season. In November (just as the season was starting) we decided to relocate to Singapore. Spent 3 months getting ready and now 7 weeks here getting settled. Plus now I deal with games starting between 8:00 and 11:30 in the morning, so I watch most of them on a delay. Hence, not much time on Jazzfanz. Like I said...busy.

I'll see what I can do to hang around more, especially with an important offseason coming soon.

 

[freakazoid]

I'll see what I can do to hang around more, especially with an important offseason coming soon.

Not acceptable. Too many nirods. Once a week is not too much to ask.

I look forward to your weekly posts, at the very least.

Thank you in advavance.

 

[northeast]

-2006-07 - Western Conference Finals (as in: 1 step away from the Finals) - and if Robert Horry doesn't body check Steve Nash into the scorer's table - it's likely Utah faces a Phoenix squad they beat 3/4 times instead of San Antonio in the WCF and then go on to beat that dreadful Cleveland team.

-2007-08 - Conference semifinals, Game 5 at Staples Center - the game everyone forgets, but the Jazz were one increbile Steve Javie/Bob Delaney-screw job away from taking a 3-2 lead over THEE LOS ANGELES LAKERS, with Game 6 back in SLC. Most analysts agreed that series was the real conference finals.

-2008-09 - Season got derailed twice, first when Deron sprained his ankle in preseason and didn't regain form until January, then when Boozer injured his knee and missed 45 games. Then they had to face the Lakers - w/out Mehmet Okur for essentially the entire series.

-2009-10 - Got hot in midseason and were on an incredible 17-2 stretch, when they traded away Ronnie Brewer - which didn't affect the team until AK injured his calf with 16 games remaining in the season - and was lost for virtually the rest of the season/playoffs. Then Okur blows his achilles in Game 1, beat Denver but not enough weapons left to finish games against LA even though they had great chances (Game 1: 4-point lead with 2 minutes left at Staples, Game 3: 2-point lead w/30 seconds left).


So you see 2 years where the Jazz were 1 step away from making The Finals, and 2 years where injuries and lack of roster improvement prevented them from taking that next step. [etc.]

.

This post wins the debate by a knockout.

 

[northeast]

Earlier posters made some odd mistakes.
1. When did the Jazz ever play an 8th seed?
2. How is it that advancing to the second round is the same as not advancing to the second round?

Any time you are good enough to advance to the second round, you are good enough to have a shot of winning any playoff series if it is called fairly.

 

[gregbroncs]

Earlier posters made some odd mistakes.
1. When did the Jazz ever play an 8th seed?
2. How is it that advancing to the second round is the same as not advancing to the second round?

Any time you are good enough to advance to the second round, you are good enough to have a shot of winning any playoff series if it is called fairly.

Golden state was an 8th seed. Winning to get to the 2nd round does not make you a contender. A contender is a team with a legitimate shot at a title. Since half the league makes the playoffs and a good portion get to the 2nd round that's is not enough to be a contender. You must either beat a team that is a contender or at least force a deciding game. The Jazz have not done either.

 

[Sneakers]

-2006-07 - Western Conference Finals (as in: 1 step away from the Finals) - and if Robert Horry doesn't body check Steve Nash into the scorer's table - it's likely Utah faces a Phoenix squad they beat 3/4 times instead of San Antonio in the WCF and then go on to beat that dreadful Cleveland team.

-2007-08 - Conference semifinals, Game 5 at Staples Center - the game everyone forgets, but the Jazz were one increbile Steve Javie/Bob Delaney-screw job away from taking a 3-2 lead over THEE LOS ANGELES LAKERS, with Game 6 back in SLC. Most analysts agreed that series was the real conference finals.

-2008-09 - Season got derailed twice, first when Deron sprained his ankle in preseason and didn't regain form until January, then when Boozer injured his knee and missed 45 games. Then they had to face the Lakers - w/out Mehmet Okur for essentially the entire series.

-2009-10 - Got hot in midseason and were on an incredible 17-2 stretch, when they traded away Ronnie Brewer - which didn't affect the team until AK injured his calf with 16 games remaining in the season - and was lost for virtually the rest of the season/playoffs. Then Okur blows his achilles in Game 1, beat Denver but not enough weapons left to finish games against LA even though they had great chances (Game 1: 4-point lead with 2 minutes left at Staples, Game 3: 2-point lead w/30 seconds left).


So you see 2 years where the Jazz were 1 step away from making The Finals, and 2 years where injuries and lack of roster improvement prevented them from taking that next step. (If healthy it's likely they don't make it regardless, but injuries really robbed them of the opportunity to take that next step).

Due to injuries/age of Boozer, I agree with the decision to let him walk for 6 yrs $75 million. However, the fact is those were still some darn good Jazz teams that were pretty close to the ultimate goal.

Jazz fans will be lucky to experience that type of success from this new rebuilding effort. For every OKC, there are a dozen rebuilding failures. There are just too many unknowns to think the Jazz are in a better position now than they were 3 years ago.
It's like spending $500 on lottery tickets instead of spending $500 on savings bonds. You now have a chance at striking it rich, but that doesn't mean you're more financially successful.

God... this makes me so sad its all over.

 

[Jazz4ever]

-2006-07 - Western Conference Finals (as in: 1 step away from the Finals) - and if Robert Horry doesn't body check Steve Nash into the scorer's table - it's likely Utah faces a Phoenix squad they beat 3/4 times instead of San Antonio in the WCF and then go on to beat that dreadful Cleveland team.

-2007-08 - Conference semifinals, Game 5 at Staples Center - the game everyone forgets, but the Jazz were one increbile Steve Javie/Bob Delaney-screw job away from taking a 3-2 lead over THEE LOS ANGELES LAKERS, with Game 6 back in SLC. Most analysts agreed that series was the real conference finals.

-2008-09 - Season got derailed twice, first when Deron sprained his ankle in preseason and didn't regain form until January, then when Boozer injured his knee and missed 45 games. Then they had to face the Lakers - w/out Mehmet Okur for essentially the entire series.

-2009-10 - Got hot in midseason and were on an incredible 17-2 stretch, when they traded away Ronnie Brewer - which didn't affect the team until AK injured his calf with 16 games remaining in the season - and was lost for virtually the rest of the season/playoffs. Then Okur blows his achilles in Game 1, beat Denver but not enough weapons left to finish games against LA even though they had great chances (Game 1: 4-point lead with 2 minutes left at Staples, Game 3: 2-point lead w/30 seconds left).


So you see 2 years where the Jazz were 1 step away from making The Finals, and 2 years where injuries and lack of roster improvement prevented them from taking that next step. (If healthy it's likely they don't make it regardless, but injuries really robbed them of the opportunity to take that next step).

Due to injuries/age of Boozer, I agree with the decision to let him walk for 6 yrs $75 million. However, the fact is those were still some darn good Jazz teams that were pretty close to the ultimate goal.

Jazz fans will be lucky to experience that type of success from this new rebuilding effort. For every OKC, there are a dozen rebuilding failures. There are just too many unknowns to think the Jazz are in a better position now than they were 3 years ago.
It's like spending $500 on lottery tickets instead of spending $500 on savings bonds. You now have a chance at striking it rich, but that doesn't mean you're more financially successful.

Its fun to play "what if" scenarios, but then you have to play them for the other side to.

2007: Golden State doesn't get their fluke win and we have to face the 67-15 Mavs in the second round. Gone fishin'

2008: Andrew Bynum plays.............

2009: Despite the 8th seeding I believe this was the strongest Jazz team overall. Memo was crazy good until the injury, Sap had expanded his game, Korver was in sync, and AK was playing inspired. Memo's injury and Boozer at 70% made the Lakers too much to handle, but if everyone was healthy I might be able to loosely put a contender label on them.

2010: Denver has Karl coaching. Yeah the Jazz may have still won, but Memo and AK had declined athletically so even without their injuries this team is probably not a contender.

 

[northeast]

any team that makes it to the 2nd round is good enough to beat any other team in a series if the games are called even.