If the Jazz are blown out tonight...

[The Norm]

Yeah. Gut the roster, and then tell Corbin to make chicken salad out of chicken ****. That's fair.

Oh my God, are people STILL making excuses for Corbin? XD

 

[GVC]

Agree. Hayward was part of that starting group that seemed to always have the Jazz down by 10 pts or more when they left. And Kanters, Favors and Burks (when he played) were - for the most part - dominating their opposing backups. If we're finger-pointing, though, I'd have to say it was more Mo and Foye that let down the starting unit late in the season.

You're missing the point. THIS year's starting unit is far worse than last year's. You've decided to use the "4 on 5" argument, which was used, and more-or-less as valid, last season (I don't think 2013Jamaal-Jefferson is a huge downgrade from 2013Jamaal-Marvin).

The 4-on-5 argument might explain some of the poor starts, but not all. The rest is either random bad luck (and we should expect some reversion to the mean) and/or can be blamed on some combination of Kanter, Favors and Hayward.

There were several posters (I believe you were one of them) who believed that swapping Foye-Millsap-Al with Hayward-Favors-Kanter would lead to better results immediately (and that any drop-off in team performance would be explained by lack of depth). The results couldn't be much worse. The starters (+Tinsley and Jefferson, again IMO roughly equivalent to Tinsley and Marvin) have been atrocious, with a +/- of -29.0 per 48 minutes.

 

[fufo]

Lemme see...

Kyle Lowry > Tinsley
Demar Derozan < Hayward, not by much tho
Rudy Gay > Jefferson
Hansbrough ? Favors (If Favors is on, Favors > Hansbrough. If Favors takes the game off, then Hansbrough > Favors)
Valunciunas = Kanter

Thier bench > Our bench.
We lose.

Enes is better than Jonas. They know each other very well and Enes schooled Jonas badly couple of times in youth championships.

 

[[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]]

Maybe Favors should stop playing like a scared *****?

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

I was trying to be provocative. I think there's a decent chance Kanter and/or Hayward develop into better players than Al.



What accounts for the lack of spacing? 2013Jamaal and Jefferson hitting at a much lower rate from 3 than 2012Jamaal and Marvin last season? Is Hayward providing more or less spacing than Foye? What of Favors' contributions?

How would you rate Kanter-Favors against Al-Paul on offense? How much worse would they have to be as a duo IF you think they've provided equivalent or better defense? Have they provided better defense?

Randy Foye + Al Jefferson was the basis of our entire offense last year, along with Hayward playing off the ball. We don't have that at all this year because a) Foye is gone, b) Hayward is now the running around with the ball instead of spotting up, and then c) we don't have Al drawing double and triple teams in the post. FWIW, Marvin is a better wing defender and rebounder than Richard Jefferson, but that's a smaller factor.

I would say Kanter is a more effective offensive player than Millsap last year, given his FG%, pts. avg. and offensive rebound rate. Of the four players you mention--Al, Sap, Kanter, Favors, I would say Favors is the least effective offensive player and Al Jefferson is the most effective. Favors can only score in certain situations, like pick-and-roll and from 15-feet out. He's not getting those scoring opportunities due to congestion in the paint. Nonetheless, Favors should be scoring more against his defender than he is currently.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Last year's team was built to win 45 games. This year's team is built to win 30 games, if that.

 

[GVC]

Probably worth pointing out that:

12/13: Tinsley-Foye-Marvin-Millsap-Al were outscored 98.8-92.2 per 48 minutes

13/14: Tinsley-Hayward-Jefferson-Favors-Kanter have been outscored 112.3-83.3 per 48 minutes

Are Favors-Kanter a better defensive frontcourt than Millsap-Al?

 

[Stifle Tower]

You're missing the point. THIS year's starting unit is far worse than last year's. You've decided to use the "4 on 5" argument, which was used, and more-or-less as valid, last season (I don't think 2013Jamaal-Jefferson is a huge downgrade from 2013Jamaal-Marvin).

The 4-on-5 argument might explain some of the poor starts, but not all. The rest is either random bad luck (and we should expect some reversion to the mean) and/or can be blamed on some combination of Kanter, Favors and Hayward.

There were several posters (I believe you were one of them) who believed that swapping Foye-Millsap-Al with Hayward-Favors-Kanter would lead to better results immediately (and that any drop-off in team performance would be explained by lack of depth). The results couldn't be much worse. The starters (+Tinsley and Jefferson, again IMO roughly equivalent to Tinsley and Marvin) have been atrocious, with a +/- of -29.0 per 48 minutes.

Yes and no to your assertion. I think I've maintained the team might play close to .500 at home, but really struggle on the road. I also predicted a ceiling of 33 wins prior to Trey being hurt and brought that down to mid-20's. That was based on what Portland did last year with good starters and no bench. However, I also cautioned that their starters were proven vets and a ROY. AS for the Jazz, after three tough losses, Utah has crumbled on their FIRST road trip. Hayward was a starter for the latter half of the year so we're essentially swapping RJ for Foye. I AM surprised by the lack of intensity from Favors and Kanter. They're getting dominated inside. I expected more from them. Collectively, they aren't playing much better defensively than the Millsap-Jefferson combo. Offensively, I expected them to look bad early. Jazz lost 4 of their 5 top scorers. They only have Hayward, who is notoriously a slow starter, as their outside threat. Really, though, look at the individual averages for the Core4 through six games. Room for improvement? Certainly. But overall - outside of the TO's - not that bad. Cut the TO's by 5/per game and improve team FT% and the Jazz would probably be 2-4, if not 3-3. Immediately, I think Kanter's lack of defensive rebounds is alarming. Hayward is grabbing more on the defensive end! And obviously, outside of Enes, the others haven't shot very well. It will be interesting to see how these stats change once the Jazz play several more home games. [TABLE="class: data borderTop title"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 17"]Player Averages
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: label"]
[TD="align: left"]Player
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Pos
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]GP
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]GS
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]MPG
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]FG%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3P%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]FT%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]ORG
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]DRG
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]TRG
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]APG
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]SPG
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]BPG
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]TO
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]PF
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]PPG
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row1"]
[TD="align: left"]Gordon Hayward
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]SG
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]35.7
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]43.3
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]39.1
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]70.8
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.7
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4.8
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6.5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4.8
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.8
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.0
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.3
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.0
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]18.3
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row2"]
[TD="align: left"]Enes Kanter
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]C
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]33.5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]52.4
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]88.2
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.2
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.2
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8.3
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.2
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.0
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.0
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16.8
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row1"]
[TD="align: left"]Alec Burks
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]PG
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]40.8
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]18.2
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]63.6
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.2
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.3
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.3
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.8
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.2
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.0
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]14.2
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row2"]
[TD="align: left"]Derrick Favors
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]PF
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]34.2
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]41.4
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.0
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]63.3
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.7
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7.3
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10.0
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.2
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.8
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.3
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.3
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.7
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11.2
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[GVC]

Really, though, look at the individual averages for the Core4 through six games. Room for improvement? Certainly. But overall - outside of the TO's - not that bad.

Someone has to score. 3 of those 4 players are shooting at below league average TS%. The starters are giving up 112 points per 48 minutes. They're playing terribly.

 

[Mr. McGibblets]

I would so so pissed if Corbin is fired this year. Especially this early.

That means that the Jazz could have had Bledsoe and Horny for Millsap, Al and Corbin but chose to do nothing. Unreal.

That's why I don't want Corbin fired. I want Parker or Wiggins. Corbin May be the worst coach ever. The Jazz have ****ed everything up so far. Don't **** the tank by bringing in a good coach. Lose, lose and lose.

This is pure speculation. There is no evidence that the Jazz turned down an offer for Bledsoe. Provide some non Bleacher Report links. Sterling loved Bledsoe and almost turned down the Reddick deal because he loved Bledsoe. But he was going to trade him for some expiring contracts? Come on...

So, let's say the Kanter deal included the pick that got us Burke. I'd trade Burke and Kanter for Harden.

Bledsoe for Millsap and Burks? Done.

Our starting lineup is still:

Bledsoe
Harden
Hayward
Favors

With potentially Dwight Howard.

You wouldn't give up Burks and Burke for that?

My point is this. The Jazz had a TON of opportunities to improve and decided to do nothing. They had BETTER get Parker or Wiggins or a super star out of all of this. If they don't, then they wasted the last five years and we really are the Timberwolves.

You don't know what they did or tried to do. The Harden rumors came from some Zach Lowe tweets, but you are extrapolating a lot without much in support of your assertions.

And then you mention Howard as a possibility? Lol. Ok.

If only you were the GM - we'd have harden, Bledsoe, Dwight Howard, and probably Lebron next summer.

 

[green]

It boils down this: If you can't score in the NBA, you can't do anything.

We don't have anyone that can score.

 

[Getting Traded]

They will keep Corbin for better or worse this year, and they will be OK with the latter. He will probably get a chance next year as well, but be on a shorter leash.

Corbin supporters were saying this last year -- this is the longest leash on record. Damn, I said we should've fired him the beginning of his first year. Now, he's in his third year!