Israel-Hamas War

[Red]

Hamas was democratically elected.

In that same comment, I said:

he’s also trashed our democratically elected allies…

I think we both know Hamas is not an ally of the United States. I made it clear I was talking about the democratically elected leaders of our allies. And we all know Trump’s trashed many of those. He even rudely tossed candy at Angela Markel, while saying “don’t say I never gave you anything”. Such a crude buffoon. He talks s*** about and to our friends, praises strongmen. It’s a pathetic display.

 

[Red]

Israel orders the evacuation of 1.1 million people from northern part of Gaza, the UN says

Israel’s military has directed the evacuation of northern Gaza, a region that is home to 1.1 million people, within 24 hours. That's according to a U.N. spokesman.

apnews.com

“Israel’s military on Friday directed the evacuation of northern Gaza, a region that is home to 1.1 million people — about half of the territory’s population — within 24 hours, a U.N. spokesman said.

This could signal an impending ground offensive, though the Israeli military has not yet confirmed such an appeal. On Thursday it said that while it was preparing, a decision has not yet been made.

The order, delivered to the U.N., comes as Israel presses an offensive against Hamas militants. U.N. spokesman Stéphane Dujarric called the order “impossible” without “devastating humanitarian consequences.”

 

[fishonjazz]

I found this article to be a good read: https://www.yahoo.com/news/hamas-timed-attack-deliberately-now-151255255.html
A few snippets:

Until this weekend, Israelis seemed confident that Hamas was not looking for another large-scale conflict. Some observers have speculated that this attack has something to do with a normalization deal in the works between Saudi Arabia and Israel. The two countries have been negotiating over opening up diplomatic relations. Maybe Hamas’ goal was to whip up tension and disrupt those talks?

Gregg Carlstrom: I think it will certainly delay efforts at a normalization deal, and that is not for Hamas an unwelcome side effect of this, but I think their considerations are much more local or are domestic. If you look at the situation in the Palestinian territories, you have a succession crisis brewing in the West Bank, where the president—Mahmoud Abbas, 87 years old, not in great health—doesn’t have a clear successor, but there’s going to be a change of power soon. There haven’t been elections in Palestine in almost 18 years now, but there’s a moment where it seems like a political change is coming. And to me, a lot of this has to do with those domestic politics, with Hamas trying to do something that boosts its popularity amongst Palestinians ahead of a political change.

You’ve called attention to this analysis in Haaretz, the Israeli newspaper, saying that Israel’s got four bad options. Now, can you just lay out what those options are?

The first one is not a military option. It’s to make a deal, a prisoner swap with Hamas [around] these dozens of Israelis who’ve been taken hostage and brought back to Gaza. The point of capturing them was obviously to exchange them, as Israel has done in the past. In 2011, for example, [Israel] freed about 1,000 Palestinian prisoners in exchange for Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier who had been held in Gaza for five years. Hamas would like to make a similar deal and hand over these hostages in exchange for thousands of Palestinians who were being held in Israel.

That does not seem likely, given how brutal the attack was.

No, it doesn’t. I think neither the political class nor the public right now is in any mood to make a deal.

So that leaves you with more-military responses, one of which is what Israel has done in past wars, which is a campaign of aerial bombing against Gaza, which has already started. That has been in the past, and that will be, again, devastating for Palestinians. In 2014, during that long war, you had thousands of people killed. You had tens of thousands of people who were left homeless afterwards. And at the end of that, the concern in Israel is that you do all of that and you don’t actually change the status quo. In Gaza, you don’t remove Hamas from power by doing that. You don’t, perhaps, seriously degrade its military capabilities, and so this cycle might continue to repeat.

So then, the other two options that have been floated, one of them is to tighten even further this blockade of Gaza and essentially try to starve not just Hamas but 2 million people into submission. That is more or less what Israel has been doing for the past 16 or 17 years, and it hasn’t worked. The blockade has immiserated Gaza. It has left it at a point where two-thirds of the population is unemployed; 80 percent of people need humanitarian aid to survive. It has destroyed the economy, but it has not brought political change. So that’s not really a viable option either.

And the last is to go ahead with a ground offensive, which will be devastating for everyone involved.

 

[Release the Kraken]

The UN creation of a Jewish State following WWII was surely a fools folly and a recipe for disaster. In 48 when Israel declared its’ independence, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were displaced in Israel’s ethnic cleansing campaign. The UN afforded these people refugee facilities in surrounding Arab Countries like Syria, Jordan and Egypt. The Gaza Strip, originally Egypt occupied, was one such Palestinian refugee location. Israel took control after the 6 day war of 67. With control of its airspace, waterways and borders (walls & check points) and now with over 2 million residents in an urban sprawl of only 141 square miles, conditions are squalid in the best of times. Of course having Hamas which is a resistance organization (committed to the expulsion of Israel).in charge as opposed to the Palestinian Authority (West Bank) only exacerbates the situation for Gaza. And yet this grossly overpopulated area not given the means or economic assistance to develop is forced to buy its water and electricity from Israel.

Clearly not a bonafide two state system as Israel has total control even to the extent that Netanyahu will slice off a piece of that 141 square miles whenever he pleases to accommodate another Jewish settlement. For people who know of the restrictions and abuses, Gaza is referred to as an open prison.

I’m clearly no authority having only recently cobbled together most of my knowledge in order to try to comprehend the rage and utter ruthlessness that propelled the Hamas slaughter of Israelis in the raid. But Israel’s response of seizure and indiscriminate bombing (over 1400 Palestinians currently confirmed dead, over 400 of which are Children according to CNN), is in violation of Geneva Accords and also morally unjustifiable and reprehensible. My only concern here presently is the termination of this genocidal drive to exterminate imposed by Netanyahu.

 

[BabyPeterzz]

You're the one quoting him.

My edit:

Like world changing words. Figure it out bro. You call others cultist yet you bring him up more than any Trump supporter I know. You push his words far more. I'm saying that without being hostile. You talk about Trump far more than anyone I personally know.

I love this BS deflection. He’s the leading candidate for the GOP. He represents you and your huge cult. Yes, he’s says dumb **** everyday, with the biggest megaphone possible.

We call out his ******** and you just deflect and complain. You have TDS and you’re in a cult. Bless your heart.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BabyPeterzz]

You seem to care about me posting about it. That's even more odd lol. All riled up over me? I'm nobody. Trump has millions of followers that he influences.

Who cares what he says? Literally 10's of millions of people. He has his own social media site for God's sake lol

Seriously, this “why do care so much?!” horse **** is childish deflection. They’re so clouded with confirmation bias they don’t realize they sound like kids with short attention spans. Plus, they feel guilty about it for sure. It’s all a cope.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Eminence]

The UN creation of a Jewish State following WWII was surely a fools folly and a recipe for disaster. In 48 when Israel declared its’ independence, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were displaced in Israel’s ethnic cleansing campaign. The UN afforded these people refugee facilities in surrounding Arab Countries like Syria, Jordan and Egypt. The Gaza Strip, originally Egypt occupied, was one such Palestinian refugee location. Israel took control after the 6 day war of 67. With control of its airspace, waterways and borders (walls & check points) and now with over 2 million residents in an urban sprawl of only 141 square miles, conditions are squalid in the best of times. Of course having Hamas which is a resistance organization (committed to the expulsion of Israel).in charge as opposed to the Palestinian Authority (West Bank) only exacerbates the situation for Gaza. And yet this grossly overpopulated area not given the means or economic assistance to develop is forced to buy its water and electricity from Israel.

Clearly not a bonafide two state system as Israel has total control even to the extent that Netanyahu will slice off a piece of that 141 square miles whenever he pleases to accommodate another Jewish settlement. For people who know of the restrictions and abuses, Gaza is referred to as an open prison.

I’m clearly no authority having only recently cobbled together most of my knowledge in order to try to comprehend the rage and utter ruthlessness that propelled the Hamas slaughter of Israelis in the raid. But Israel’s response of seizure and indiscriminate bombing (over 1400 Palestinians currently confirmed dead, over 400 of which are Children according to CNN), is in violation of Geneva Accords and also morally unjustifiable and reprehensible. My only concern here presently is the termination of this genocidal drive to exterminate imposed by Netanyahu.

Firstly, as I said in my initial post I don't really care about the history in reference to current events, it's just too long to still be an excuse any more. But I do like history

I think this a pretty good summary of the last 75 years. I do think starting after WWII is a bit late.

I would probably start the story in the mid 1800's with the emergence of Zionism (the normal definition, not the conspiracy far-right definitions) as a strong ideology amongst the Jewish people (understandably, they were treated poorly across Europe and the Middle East).

Up to that point Palestine was super majority inhabited by Palestinians (~95% of the population, other ~5% a whole mix of groups) under the rule of the Ottomans and had been that way for several centuries. I don't think connecting events in the 1800s to the earlier slow Jewish expulsion from Palestine many centuries before by the Romans/Byzantines/early Caliphates is a realistic position, so I won't go into that earlier history at all.

Jews began to immigrate to Palestine in increasing numbers throughout the 1800s. From all across Europe, but mostly from Russia (more still came to America, hence the East Coast Jewish population today). By the early 1900s they were now a notable minority in Palestine (exact numbers disagree quite a bit, I've seen estimates ranging from 5% to 15%).

During WWI the Ottoman empire allied itself with Germany and a significant percentage of those Jewish immigrants were expelled from Palestine as they were of Russian descent (a member of the allies). They mainly went to Egypt. Upon the victory by the allies the UK came to govern the area (and significant other portions of the middle east). Jews that had been expelled during WWI returned and Jewish immigration accelerated even more, peaking with a mass movement from Europe following the end of WWII (broadly Jews in Palestine had sided with Britain and the Allies and Palestinians had sided with Germany and the Axis). The overall population distribution of the area following WWII was approximately 2/3 Palestinian and 1/3 Jewish.

Then your post, and noting that significant Jewish immigration has continued since the founding of Israel, and now the area as a whole is approximately 50% Jewish and 50% Palestinian.

 

[Sardines]

So did Trump recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital along with moving the U.S. Embassy there contribute to animosity between Israel and Hamas? I mean we all know that NATO expansion caused the war in Ukraine, so, is this the same kind of deal?

 

[Eminence]

While I'm feeling historical, a question I've always wondered - why in 1947 did the UN partition plan give the Negev to Israel and the northern portion bordering Lebanon to Palestine?

The map would seem to make so much more sense with the two flipped. Those narrow strips of land separating the two seem destined for conflict.

The 1947 partition plan for reference:

 

[Al-O-Meter]

The Gaza Strip, originally Egypt...

This part is correct. The rest of what you wrote is a collection half truths from antisemitic sources.

It was Egypt. Then the Six-Day War happened, and it wasn’t Israel doing ethnic cleansing but Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser trying to become the big man of the Middle East by leading a coalition to wipe Israel off the map. Israel was desperate to not be exterminated and had everyone take up arms, including the Arab Israeli citizens. Some of those Arab Israelis didn’t want to stop the forces trying to kill all the Jews, and they left rather than take up arms to defend Israel. Some even joined the armies of those trying to kill the Jews, serving as experts in the region to direct troop movement.

The Six-Day War happened and it didn’t go well for Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. Egypt relinquished control of the Sinai Peninsula including the Gaza Strip but Israel never annexed the territory to make it part of Israel. It remained as "occupied territory". As for the Arab Israelis, those who stayed to fight for Israel are still Israeli today, and there are a lot of them. For the Arabs who left rather than fight for Israel, Israel refused to let them back in after the war. Some of the Gaza residents are the descendants of those who lived there in Gaza under Egyptian rule, and some are the descendants of the traitorous turncoats. That is what “right to return” is about. They weren’t pushed out by Israel. They left on their own when Israel needed them and Israel won’t let them return.

All of that is ancient history and isn’t what is driving modern events.

The Gaza Strip isn’t an open air prison. It is good land being ruined by the worst government you can imagine. Israel does not have control over it or even a presence in it. Hamas has absolute control over the whole thing. In peace negotiations, Israel told the Egyptians they could have all of the Sinai back and Egypt thankfully took back the Sinai except for the Gaza Strip which they wanted nothing to do with, and Israel didn't want it, so now Hamas has it.

The Gaza Strip has farmland. It has a power plant. It has a natural aquifer to provide water to all the residents. It doesn’t need to buy anything from Israel, and does not purchase most of its water from Israel. The ground water in Gaza is now polluted from run off from the Gaza farms. The pollutants can be filtered out and that is where Gaza gets 96% of their water, but only from Hamas-approved filtering stations. Hamas banned all well drilling by private citizens. There were pipelines to deliver fresh water but Hamas dug them all up to turn the pipes into rocket pipe bombs they can fire into Israel.

Also, Netanyahu doesn’t “slice off a piece of that 141 square miles whenever he pleases”. It is the same 141 square miles it has always been. You are confusing Gaza with the West Bank. The settlements and the annexing is going on in the West Bank, not Gaza.

The solution isn’t to bully Israel into giving free stuff to their Palestinians neighbors located in that former piece of Egypt. The solution to save the Arabs in Gaza is two things: #1 Hamas has to be decapitated. #2 Making war on Israel has to stop being lucrative.

For as long as Gulf States can get political advantage by being seen to support hurting the Jews, there will be money to do exactly that, and someone will rise up to take that money. Hamas has been offered close to 20 peace agreements and they reject every one of them. The leadership of Hamas makes truckloads of cash by taking a percentage of ‘kill-the-Jews’ money being paid by Gulf States. Killing Jews is the biggest industry there is in Gaza. So long as there are yachts to buy, Hamas will never give up the cash stream.

 

[Release the Kraken]

Firstly, as I said in my initial post I don't really care about the history in reference to current events, it's just too long to still be an excuse any more. But I do like history

I think this a pretty good summary of the last 75 years. I do think starting after WWII is a bit late.

I would probably start the story in the mid 1800's with the emergence of Zionism (the normal definition, not the conspiracy far-right definitions) as a strong ideology amongst the Jewish people (understandably, they were treated poorly across Europe and the Middle East).

Up to that point Palestine was super majority inhabited by Palestinians (~95% of the population, other ~5% a whole mix of groups) under the rule of the Ottomans and had been that way for several centuries. I don't think connecting events in the 1800s to the earlier slow Jewish expulsion from Palestine many centuries before by the Romans/Byzantines/early Caliphates is a realistic position, so I won't go into that earlier history at all.

Jews began to immigrate to Palestine in increasing numbers throughout the 1800s. From all across Europe, but mostly from Russia (more still came to America, hence the East Coast Jewish population today). By the early 1900s they were now a notable minority in Palestine (exact numbers disagree quite a bit, I've seen estimates ranging from 5% to 15%).

During WWI the Ottoman empire allied itself with Germany and a significant percentage of those Jewish immigrants were expelled from Palestine as they were of Russian descent (a member of the allies). They mainly went to Egypt. Upon the victory by the allies the UK came to govern the area (and significant other portions of the middle east). Jews that had been expelled during WWI returned and Jewish immigration accelerated even more, peaking with a mass movement from Europe following the end of WWII (broadly Jews in Palestine had sided with Britain and the Allies and Palestinians had sided with Germany and the Axis). The overall population distribution of the area following WWII was approximately 2/3 Palestinian and 1/3 Jewish.

Then your post, and noting that significant Jewish immigration has continued since the founding of Israel, and now the area as a whole is approximately 50% Jewish and 50% Palestinian.

Sure. Familiar with your main points and appreciative of objective factual history wherever I can find it. My argument was persuasive in design so only provided broad strokes to make a point. History certainly does matter and even a story as complete as yours still provides more questions than answers regarding how a religious group was awarded their own state as an immigrant group.

I’m going to end with this thought as it was instructive in the sense that citizens of these States are not lockstep in favor of the actions of their leaders and therefore largely victims of the ensuing violence. A young Israeli man that had lost members of his extended family was being interviewed about them (human interest) and volunteered the belief that no lasting peace could take place until both governments had been realigned- referring to Netanyahu and Hamas.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

So did Trump recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital along with moving the U.S. Embassy there contribute to animosity between Israel and Hamas?

No. That was met mostly with a shrug. The source of the animosity is much more basic. There is a wall and on the side Israel controls there are nice homes and EDM concerts. On the side controlled by Hamas, it is hell. Here is the Gaza conflict summed up for you:


View: https://youtu.be/meiU6TxysCg?si=0DzVp50rnq2Mp8on&t=79


The problem is the perverse incentive structure. The more unequal the two sides of the wall, the more willing the Gaza Palestinians are to fight which puts money in the pockets of Hamas. The worse Gaza is, the more money Hamas leadership makes.

 

[fishonjazz]

No. That was met mostly with a shrug. The source of the animosity is much more basic. There is a wall and on the side Israel controls there are nice homes and EDM concerts. On the side controlled by Hamas, it is hell. Here is the Gaza conflict summed up for you:


View: https://youtu.be/meiU6TxysCg?si=0DzVp50rnq2Mp8on&t=79


The problem is the perverse incentive structure. The more unequal the two sides of the wall, the more willing the Gaza Palestinians are to fight which puts money in the pockets of Hamas. The worse Gaza is, the more money Hamas leadership makes.

Im enjoying your info about this so thanks. Question: How does the gaza palestinians being willing to fight put the money in the pockets of hamas? Are the gaza palestinians most unemployed and impoverished? where does the money that hamas gets come from?

 

[Eminence]

Sure. Familiar with your main points and appreciative of objective factual history wherever I can find it. My argument was persuasive in design so only provided broad strokes to make a point. History certainly does matter and even a story as complete as yours still provides more questions than answers regarding how a religious group was awarded their own state as an immigrant group.

I’m going to end with this thought as it was instructive in the sense that citizens of these States are not lockstep in favor of the actions of their leaders and therefore largely victims of the ensuing violence. A young Israeli man that had lost members of his extended family was being interviewed about them (human interest) and volunteered the belief that no lasting peace could take place until both governments had been realigned- referring to Netanyahu and Hamas.

Always are more questions - that one I think is reasonably straightforward, the Jews happened to be on the side that won both world wars, so they got their wish (Zionism) fulfilled after the second war, had the Axis won I'm less sure the Palestinians would've got their own nation (likely they would've been left to be cut up by surrounding Arab nations, but the Jews sure would've been gone).

Both had their sides chosen for them by the Ottomans in WWI, and no real chance for re-alignment with the Nazis leading the Axis the second time around - so I don't hold that against either group, just is what it is.

I hope many of the youth think that way and are willing to act on it to bring the two back to speaking terms and work from there.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Im enjoying your info about this so thanks. Question: How does the gaza palestinians being willing to fight put the money in the pockets of hamas? Are the gaza palestinians most unemployed and impoverished? where does the money that hamas gets come from?

The money comes from a lot of sources. Some are organizations who want to bring aid to Palestinians, and others are like Iran who want to hurt the Jews. Not all of the money Iran gives to Hamas goes to buy rockets and Hamas takes a portion of every construction project done by aid groups.

 

[Release the Kraken]

Always are more questions - that one I think is reasonably straightforward, the Jews happened to be on the side that won both world wars, so they got their wish (Zionism) fulfilled after the second war, had the Axis won I'm less sure the Palestinians would've got their own nation (likely they would've been left to be cut up by surrounding Arab nations, but the Jews sure would've been gone).

Both had their sides chosen for them by the Ottomans in WWI, and no real chance for re-alignment with the Nazis leading the Axis the second time around - so I don't hold that against either group, just is what it is.

I hope many of the youth think that way and are willing to act on it to bring the two back to speaking terms and work from there.

Agreed to an extent. Noam Chomsky and Ian Bremmer are two brilliant minds with very different perspectives that seem to arrive at a lot of the same conclusions in regard to Israel and the Middle East. I’m no scholar but retired now and free time may go further down the rabbit hole.

The Middle East has been a powder keg for as long as I can remember but still a very recent chapter in world history. With actors like Iran and Hezbollah in the wings, it is an area that impacts international affairs, economies and military involvement. Just because history repeats itself and human history is fraught with war is no reason to accept the status quo imo. Nuclear armaments changes the complexion of everything and makes it imperative to change the equation and seek new and lasting solutions.

 

[fishonjazz]

Just from what im seeing it seems like both sides commit atrocities against the other with the biggest difference being that it seems that hamas is really happy about committing the atrocities. they love chanting "death to israel" (and death to america). they sit on the corpses and smile and cheer. they want people to watch the videos that they put out of them terrorizing people.
Not seeing that from israel so much.

 

[Zombie]

Just from what im seeing it seems like both sides commit atrocities against the other with the biggest difference being that it seems that hamas is really happy about committing the atrocities. they love chanting "death to israel" (and death to america). they sit on the corpses and smile and cheer. they want people to watch the videos that they put out of them terrorizing people.
Not seeing that from israel so much.

I wouldn't be so sure of that:

Israelis gather on hillsides to watch and cheer as military drops bombs on Gaza

Harriet Sherwood: People drink, snack and pose for selfies against a background of explosions as Palestinian death toll mounts in ongoing offensive

www.theguardian.com

The current regime in Israel is made up of far right lunatics who are every bit as blood thirsty as Hamas, with the body count to prove it.

Netanyahu putting on a sad face when he gives an absurd directive for a million Palestinians to evacuate before he levels their homes doesn't make him any less of a villain in my eyes. And we shouldn't lost sight of the fact that Netanyahu has pursued the policy of propping up Hamas as part of an effort to stave off the creation of a Palestinian state.

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

The premier's policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[BabyPeterzz]

I have no idea who these guys are, but they seem pretty smart to me!

Hezbollah takes responsibility for attacks on Israeli military posts along Lebanon border

Hezbollah on Friday launched an attack on Israeli military posts along the Lebanon border, and now Israel Defense Forces are striking back.

www.foxnews.com

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[Al-O-Meter]

I have no idea who these guys are, but they seem pretty smart to me!

Hezbollah takes responsibility for attacks on Israeli military posts along Lebanon border

Hezbollah on Friday launched an attack on Israeli military posts along the Lebanon border, and now Israel Defense Forces are striking back.

www.foxnews.com

Yup. Hezbollah signaled to their supporters that they joined in on the day of rage while also making clear that their targets were MILITARY POSTS. I haven't even heard any reports of anyone being hurt. It seems that someone drove into the vicinity of a military post, fired a couple rounds in the air from their 9mm, and drove off while tweeting that they're ready to join the fight if only their friends weren't holding them back and they didn't, like, have a really important appointment right now.

In reality, Iran has already informed the United States that Hezbollah will not join this conflict.

Irrespective of [Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin] Netanyahu’s decision, Hezbollah will not open a front from south Lebanon against Israel because it will justify Israel to destroy Lebanon. Iran has already informed Israel and the U.S. through third parties that it will rein in Hezbollah

Iran-backed Hezbollah joining Israel-Hamas conflict would be a 'game changer,' Middle East expert says

With an Israeli ground incursion potentially imminent in the north of the Gaza Strip, the conflict could grow to involve other regional actors, analysts say.

www.cnbc.com