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Jackpotting Around Podcast: Episode 37 - Keandre Ashley of Hoop Intellect

Handlogten's Heros said:
They are both role players... just different variations on the same theme.
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Cant really say we know that about them as nba players since we have zero sample size for either. It can be you opinion of how you think they will be in the nba though.
Now as college players one of them was a role player. The other wasn't though.
 
fishonjazz said:
Cant really say we know that about them as nba players since we have zero sample size for either. It can be you opinion of how you think they will be in the nba though.
Now as college players one of them was a role player. The other wasn't though.
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We can't say anything about what their potential roles will be as NBA players? That's like what we do my guy. Context in college is important. It also depends on what your definition of a role player is... if it is anything other than number 1 guy then sure... Kon was a role player. He was the second option on a team that was the best college team for 95% of the year. He was the second option to the best player in this year's draft. Bold prediction - If either of these guys is your number 1 option or best player on the team... then you ain't going very far.

Its just kind of hilarious because I've seen both guys compared to the same nba players multiple times. Tre has more ability to be the best scorer on an NBA team... that NBA team likely ain't winning at a high level.
 
Elizah Huge said:
That’s where I would disagree. I think Tre has more of a chance to go beyond that.

Isn’t that what we should be drafting for what they could end up being?
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It's what we should be aiming for yes. I'm not sure Tre's chances are much higher if at all. Bucket getting is a hard way to make it onto the court in the playoffs.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
We can't say anything about what their potential roles will be as NBA players?
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Definitively? No. You said they are both role players. Which sounds like a statement of fact rather than opinion. Also sounds like a statement of present time rather than a futuristic prediction. Maybe should have said I think they will both be role players in the nba.
I thought you might have been talking about what they are/were in college. Couldn't tell for sure. In college one of them was a role player. The other one wasn't.
 
What I'm really speaking to when I say role player is a player's overall impact, like in APM terms. Coby White scored an efficient 20 PPG and he might not be a top 75 player.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
People are really stretching the definition of role player out if you think a future 20+ PPG scorer is a role player.
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Ya Tre led his team in field goal attempts by a lot. 15.9 attempts per game. Which is more than Flagg and way more than Kon. Tre was The Guy on his college team. Kon was a very good supporting role player. Now you could argue that Tre was The Guy and his team sucked so he wasn't very successful at it and could also argue that Kon was very very successful as a role player. I can dig it. But the role they each had on their teams were way different from a carrying the offensive load/volume/scoring standpoint.
 
KqWIN said:
What I'm really speaking to when I say role player is a player's overall impact, like in APM terms. Coby White scored an efficient 20 PPG and he might not be a top 75 player.
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Yep. White is an amazing role player.
 
fishonjazz said:
Ya Tre led his team in field goal attempts by a lot. 15.9 attempts per game. Which is more than Flagg and way more than Kon. Tre was The Guy on his college team. Kon was a very good supporting role player. Now you could argue that Tre was The Guy and his team sucked so he wasn't very successful at it and could also argue that Kon was very very successful as a role player. I can dig it. But the role they each had on their teams were way different from a carrying the offensive load/volume/scoring standpoint.
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Tre lead them to the tournament in the hardest conference. *shrug*
 
If the target is scoring 20 ppg I would definitely say that Tre has more potential and that potential is more real than Kon. But if we’re talking about being idk…top 50 guy you would want in a playoff game I think the potentials are about the same.
 
One counterpoint to Kon is there aren’t really that many guys who fit what I imagine his high end outcomes to me. It’s really just Bane. There are more guys who represent what I think Tre’s high end outcome would be.
 
fishonjazz said:
Definitively? No. You said they are both role players. Which sounds like a statement of fact rather than opinion. Also sounds like a statement of present time rather than a futuristic prediction. Maybe should have said I think they will both be role players in the nba.
I thought you might have been talking about what they are/were in college. Couldn't tell for sure. In college one of them was a role player. The other one wasn't.
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You are hung up on the role player thing. Obviously no one knows what the WILL be but I think they are variation on the same theme. They will be high level starters in most reasonable ceiling outcomes. Do you prefer Desmond Bane or Tyler Herro... both could be more than that because anyone can be anything I guess.

I'm truly good with either. I think Kon will be more malleable. If you hit and land the 2nd or 3rd best player on your team at #5 that is a home run. I am not consumed with ppg potential of offensive engine potential. If I thought either guy could be a true offensive engine capable of leading a conference finals team... then they would be in a tier with Dylan Harper or maybe Flagg.

Kon was the second best player on the best team in the country... role player? If that role was world class ***-kicker then I guess you right.
 
KqWIN said:
One counterpoint to Kon is there aren’t really that many guys who fit what I imagine his high end outcomes to me. It’s really just Bane. There are more guys who represent what I think Tre’s high end outcome would be.
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What's funny is I have heard both compared to Bogdon Bogdanovic as median outcomes by two different draft evaluators. My stance has been really simple. These guys are very similar quality prospects at the same position. I'm good with either. The draft is random and maybe one guy smooths out his issues or translates better. Tre Truthers then throw up over that notion... and I find it hilarious.
 
One thing that was brought up a few times was that there is so many guys like VJ running around in the playoffs. I think that’s a feature, not a bug. It’s good for his chances of being a 16-game player like those guys and it’s also good for his chances of going beyond that.

A lot this resides in the belief that players can scale up, and it does happen. A lot of the things that would point to a player being able to be a future star are actually the things we’d typically associate with role players and a lot of the overrated things are the things we’d associate with being a star. It doesn’t always work out this way of course, but those have been the trends historically.
 
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