Game Thread Jan 25, 2024 05:00PM MT: Jazz at Wizards

[fishonjazz]

Kuzma was the primary defender. If you can't see even that, then I don't know what tell you. And Lauri beat him like a drum, even with JC's screen being a bit... soft, let's say.

If Lauri first beats three guys and then ends up 1:1 on somebody, it wasn't a 1:1 - it's one on four.

If our player in the weak side corner is Simo or even Collins, it's a free run to the hoop and a hammer dunk for Lauri. But because it's Walker, Gafford doesn't have to respect it one bit and can already be in the paint ahead of Lauri - and make that great defensive play.

The play was one that we run a ton. Lauri in the strong corner, someone pins down for him, he cuts (they don't switch), gets the pass as he already has a full head of steam and then goes for the hoop.

What the play doesn't include (as @HermanG said) is the weak side player cutting backdoor. Like, ever.

The play was perfectly executed by Keyonte, Lauri and JC and usually in that case that's 2-3 points for the Jazz. But the reason that Gafford could easily beat Lauri to the basket was because the weak side player was Walker.

So I ask you, what should Walker have done to change the outcome of that play?
And I also ask you, do you feel confident in lauri with a full head of steam and only one man between him and the basket?
And I also ask you, do you think that Kessler is good at dunking when wide open?

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

 

[Tanktastic]

So I ask you, what should Walker have done to change the outcome of that play?

Be able to shoot.

And I also ask you, do you feel confident in lauri with a full head of steam and only one man between him and the basket?

Not when a decent defender is already camped out under the basket and doesn't have to care about anyone else.

And I also ask you, do you think that Kessler is good at dunking when wide open?

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

Not from 10ft out because he doesn't have gadget arms and if he has to put the ball on the ground bad things often happen.

 

[fishonjazz]

Be able to shoot.


Not when a decent defender is already camped out under the basket and doesn't have to care about anyone else.


Not from 10ft out because he doesn't have gadget arms and if he has to put the ball on the ground bad things often happen.

I take Lauri over a decent defender all day. I guess I just think more of him than you.

Walker can't shoot so nothing he could do about that.

The defender did need to worry about another player (Kessler) if the ball handler is willing to pass to a teammate for an open dunk.

Kessler wouldn't have had to dunk from 10 feet out. I posted the video and timestamped it for ya

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

 

[Tanktastic]

If Lauri had passed - when he needed to make the pass - Walker would've got the ball 10ft out.

And I trust nobody going against a rim defender camped out, not even Giannis. Because it's then no longer a high % play.

 

[fishonjazz]

If Lauri had passed - when he needed to make the pass - Walker would've got the ball 10ft out.

And I trust nobody going against a rim defender camped out, not even Giannis. Because it's then no longer a high % play.

You forgot about how when you catch a pass you can take 2 steps and 7 footers take big steps.

You should watch the play in the video directly after the one being discussed.

Lauri passed to a kessler who was cutting along the baseline for a dunk lol

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

 

[Tanktastic]

I don't blame Walker for the things he's not able to do (other than maybe the FTs).

But he simply makes playing our normal sets harder when he's on the court.

And the play isn't designed for the weak side corner to even step inside the arc. It just isn't.

 

[fishonjazz]

I don't blame Walker for the things he's not able to do (other than maybe the FTs).

But he simply makes playing our normal sets harder when he's on the court.

And the play isn't designed for the weak side corner to even step inside the arc. It just isn't.

It was on the very next play though.

This might blow you mind but hardy might have the same with different options based on personal.

Play 1: Lauri gets the ball headed into the paint. Kessler heads towards the rim on the baseline from the weak side corner. Kesslers defender doesn't pay attention to Kessler and instead focuses on Lauri. Lauri goes for the dunk. Defender makes a great play.

Play 2: Lauri gets the ball headed into the paint. Kessler heads towards the rim on the baseline from the weak side corner. Kesslers defender doesn't pay attention to Kessler and instead focuses on Lauri.
Lauri doesn't go all the way at the rim and defender and passes to Kessler instead. Kessler dunks.

Weird that Hardy would have the wrong play ran twice in a row. Someone should tell hardy that isn't the play!

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

 

[fishonjazz]

And the play isn't designed for the weak side corner to even step inside the arc. It just isn't.

When the guy in the weak side corner is a shooter you are correct.

Plays change according to personnel though and when Kessler is the guy in the weak side corner he obviously is supposed to cut to the hoop on the baseline giving the ball handler the option to pass to him for a dunk. This is obvious when you watch the play 2 times in back to back possessions and watch Kessler not hesitate one bit. He knows to go right at the hoop and Lauri knew he would be there for the dunk which is why the play worked to perfection on the second attempt.
I think hardy probably recognizes that Kessler is way better at dunking than three point shooting and so he adjusts that play when Kessler is the one in the corner. Makes a lot of sense

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

 

[Tanktastic]

It was on the very next play though.

Weird that Hardy would have the wrong play ran twice in a row. Someone should tell hardy that isn't the play!

No it wasn't.

On the next play the Jazz run the same play but with Walker as the pin down and Lauri scored on a turnaround jumper.

The Walker dunk is a completely different play. Not the pin down & cut.

 

[fishonjazz]

No it wasn't.

On the next play the Jazz run the same play but with Walker as the pin down and Lauri scored on a turnaround jumper.

The Walker dunk is a completely different play. Not the pin down & cut.

Gonna help ya out here

View: https://youtu.be/g1FubfHe6l8?si=gFThklwd4XvdnIwO


Check out the play at 7:23 in the video and the play at 7:34. (the next offensive play for the jazz in the video)


I think the biggest disagreement that you have with Hardy and I is that you think kessler is more useful and helpful staying out beyond the arc where he is useless and isn't a viable option for Lauri.
Hardy and I think Kessler is much more useful and helpful crashing towards the rim where he can get an offensive rebound opportunity if Lauri misses or give Lauri a viable option if he doesn't think a scoring opportunity for himself is there (the Kessler dunk.)

 

[Tanktastic]

Check out the play at 7:23 in the video and the play at 7:34. (the next offensive play for the jazz in the video)

You do realize that a 7 minute highlight video doesn't contain all the plays?

The actual next play, as I already said, was the same pindown & curl play as the one before. This time just with Kessler pinning down and Lauri scoring on a jumper. And Ochai and JC definitely not diving to the basket.

Video and Shotcharts | Stats | NBA.com

A video and Shot Chart interface with the ability to filter down to specific on court events and granular details.

www.nba.com

The Kessler dunk play is a completely different play, not the pindown & curl from Lauri. Lauri acts as if he's screening, pops first, then dives and gets the ball. Where he has a cutting Walker as an excellent option as soon as he gets double-teamed. And if he'd beaten Kuzma like he did (he doesn't this time) on the Gafford block, probably Avdija has to also get in the paint, which would've left Ochai wide open in the corner as the option

Video and Shotcharts | Stats | NBA.com

A video and Shot Chart interface with the ability to filter down to specific on court events and granular details.

www.nba.com

I think the biggest disagreement that you have with Hardy and I is that you think kessler is more useful and helpful staying out beyond the arc where he is useless and isn't a viable option for Lauri.

I have zero disagreement with Hardy.

Hardy and I think Kessler is much more useful and helpful crashing towards the rim where he can get an offensive rebound opportunity if Lauri misses or give Lauri a viable option if he doesn't think a scoring opportunity for himself is there (the Kessler dunk.)

No, you think a play is designed to do something it isn't. We've literally run the play hundreds of times this season. It doesn't involve the weak side corner drifting to the basket.

And the Kessler dunk play (again, a completely different play) shows that there are other plays where Walker can be utilized. But the fact just is that there are a lot more of our standard sets that don't work as well with Walker on the court.

Our offense is mainly 5 out with lots of movement. Those aren't plays that Walker is usually very useful on.

 

[fishonjazz]

You do realize that a 7 minute highlight video doesn't contain all the plays?

The actual next play, as I already said, was the same pindown & curl play as the one before. This time just with Kessler pinning down and Lauri scoring on a jumper. And Ochai and JC definitely not diving to the basket.

Video and Shotcharts | Stats | NBA.com

A video and Shot Chart interface with the ability to filter down to specific on court events and granular details.

www.nba.com

The Kessler dunk play is a completely different play, not the pindown & curl from Lauri. Lauri acts as if he's screening, pops first, then dives and gets the ball. Where he has a cutting Walker as an excellent option as soon as he gets double-teamed. And if he'd beaten Kuzma like he did (he doesn't this time) on the Gafford block, probably Avdija has to also get in the paint, which would've left Ochai wide open in the corner as the option

Video and Shotcharts | Stats | NBA.com

A video and Shot Chart interface with the ability to filter down to specific on court events and granular details.

www.nba.com

I have zero disagreement with Hardy.


No, you think a play is designed to do something it isn't. We've literally run the play hundreds of times this season. It doesn't involve the weak side corner drifting to the basket.

And the Kessler dunk play (again, a completely different play) shows that there are other plays where Walker can be utilized. But the fact just is that there are a lot more of our standard sets that don't work as well with Walker on the court.

Our offense is mainly 5 out with lots of movement. Those aren't plays that Walker is usually very useful on.

The walker dunk play shows that the same play has slight tweaks to keep the defense guessing.
Both plays get the ball to Lauri as he is headed to the paint from the top and at the same time have Kessler crashing towards the rim from the baseline giving Lauri options to score himself or pass to Kessler for the dunk. Having options is a good thing. Running the same play differently for different personnel is a good thing. Running the same play but with slight variations is a good thing. Hardy knows what he is doing. Lauri knows what he is doing. Kessler knows what he is doing.
Great execution of a great play twice. Just too bad the defender made an all time great play the first time.
You think hardy should not alter a play due to changes on personnel. You think that Walker is supposed to do the same thing that a player like ochai is supposed to do on the same play. That would be stupid since they are completely different players with completely different skillsets. Hardy isn't stupid.

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

 

[Tanktastic]

The walker dunk play shows that the same play has slight tweaks to keep the defense guessing.

No.

No.

It is a different play.

You do know that the Jazz and other NBA teams have more than one play?

Both plays get the ball to Lauri as he is headed to the paint from the top and at the same time have Kessler crashing towards the rim from the baseline giving Lauri options to score himself or pass to Kessler for the dunk.

No. The Gafford block Lauri starts from the corner and curls right after the screen. Not from the top. Do you know what the top is?

The pindown & curl does not have the weak side player crashing. And Walker does not crash. He meanders after Gafford has gone to the paint.

You think hardy should not alter a play due to changes on personnel.

I'm beginning to think you've never watched basketball beyond some highlight reels if you can't understand there are different plays that the team runs.

 

[fishonjazz]

No.

No.

It is a different play.

You do know that the Jazz and other NBA teams have more than one play?



No. The Gafford block Lauri starts from the corner and curls right after the screen. Not from the top. Do you know what the top is?

The pindown & curl does not have the weak side player crashing. And Walker does not crash. He meanders after Gafford has gone to the paint.


I'm beginning to think you've never watched basketball beyond some highlight reels if you can't understand there are different plays that the team runs.

Both plays have Lauri shedding his defender and receiving a pass as he is going into the paint. Both plays have Kessler starting outside the 3 point line and then crashing the baseline to the hoop. Both plays are designed to get Lauri a look at a shot inside the paint or a Kessler dunk. We don't have to speculate. We have video examples of these plays. We know for a fact that is how the play is ran since we actually have video evidence. It's quite clear.

You have said that Kessler would never take a step inside the three point line on that play. What you haven't said is how Kessler standing on the 3 point line with his thumb up his *** increases the chances of getting points on that play.

To you hardy running these plays this way doesn't make sense for some reason.
To me it makes perfect sense. Kessler dunks and Lauri paint shots are both good high percentage plays. Might as well have 2 really good high percentage options on the same play. You think only having one option is better for some reason you have yet to explain

As far as me not knowing where the top of the court is I wasn't talking about the exact top dead center blah blah blah. Both of those plays have Lauri making his move towards the paint from above the free throw line. (The top of the court if you draw a line at the free throw line to both sides of the court separating the court into a top and bottom)

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

 

[fishonjazz]

@Tanktastic Im not sure if you were going to continue the discussion or not (I wouldn't blame you if you just want to move on at this point like i do) but I just wanted to say thanks for the discussion and Im sorry for being a dick in some of my responses.
On to the next one (tonight!)
Go Jazz!

 

[Tanktastic]

We have video examples of these plays. We know for a fact that is how the play is ran since we actually have video evidence. It's quite clear.

Yes, we do. And they're not the same play. Not every play in which the goal is to get Lauri the ball on the move is the same play. We have tons of them.

You have said that Kessler would never take a step inside the three point line on that play. What you haven't said is how Kessler standing on the 3 point line wit his thumb up his *** increases the chances of getting points on that play.

No, what I said is that the pindown & curl play is designed for the weak side player to stay as a 3pt shooting threat as the primary option for Lauri to pass out of. It's not designed for the play to either crash or meander to the hoop, because that then clogs the paint and makes it hard for Lauri to score.

But on every play you have to respond to what your opponent does. And if the rim defender decides he can camp out in the paint, because he doesn't have to guard the weak side, then you have to react. If it's Walker, he has to get to the hoop, because he no use beyond the arc. If it's almost anyone else, be 100 % ready to get the ball and score the corner 3.

To you hardy running these plays this way doesn't make sense for some reason.
To me it makes perfect sense. Kessler dunks and Lauri paint shots are both good high percentage plays.

The pindown & curl is not designed to get a dunk from the weak side corner player. 1) Lauri scores - in any way he can. As we've seen with a dunk, a turnaround jumper or maybe a euro step-through layup. 2) Open corner 3 - almost always the best shot in basketball. 3) Other options to pass out or reset.

Might as well have 2 really good high percentage options on the same play. You think only having one option is better for some reason you have yet to explain

See above. The second option on the pindown & curl to Lauri is an open corner 3. For example Simo and even Ochai with his recent struggles are ~43 % on corner threes. Make that an open one and it's >50 %. That's >1.5 expected points. You would have to get an 80 % shot in the paint to compete with that. (edit. Not just an 80 % shot, but 80 % chance of two points. Walker will often get fouled and not be able to get the shot up. And 2 Walker FTs are ~1pt, not good.)

However, if the weak side player is Walker, that's not a realistic option. With almost all of our other players it is.

Both of those plays have Lauri making his move towards the paint from above the free throw line.

One has Lauri starting the play in the corner. The other has Lauri at the elbow.

You can't pin down in the middle of the court, because it doesn't work.

 

[fishonjazz]

But on every play you have to respond to what your opponent does. And if the rim defender decides he can camp out in the paint, because he doesn't have to guard the weak side, then you have to react. If it's Walker, he has to get to the hoop, because he no use beyond the arc. If it's almost anyone else, be 100 % ready to get the ball and score the corner 3.




See above. The second option on the pindown & curl to Lauri is an open corner 3. For example Simo and even Ochai with his recent struggles are ~43 % on corner threes. Make that an open one and it's >50 %. That's >1.5 expected points. You would have to get an 80 % shot in the paint to compete with that. (edit. Not just an 80 % shot, but 80 % chance of two points. Walker will often get fouled and not be able to get the shot up. And 2 Walker FTs are ~1pt, not good.)

However, if the weak side player is Walker, that's not a realistic option. With almost all of our other players it is.

Ya this post agrees with what I have been saying.
That play that Lauri got blocked is different when you have an Ochai, Collins, KO in the corner. They stay there and give Lauri the option to pass out for the three.
The play changes when the personnel and skillset of the personnel changes. Walker runs at the rim along the baseline when this play is ran and he is the one in the corner.


Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

 

[Tanktastic]

The play changes when the personnel and skillset of the personnel changes. Walker runs at the rim along the baseline when this play is ran and he is the one in the corner.

But that's not by design, though. Walker's run is a reaction to Gafford's first action.

There's a lot of NBA rim defenders that aren't always as aware or KYP. "My man is in the corner, that's who I've got." But Gafford and other good defenders know that it's Walker and he absolutely isn't a threat to shoot - and can easily cheat into the paint early.

 

[fishonjazz]

But that's not by design, though. Walker's run is a reaction to Gafford's first action.

There's a lot of NBA rim defenders that aren't always as aware or KYP. "My man is in the corner, that's who I've got." But Gafford and other good defenders know that it's Walker and he absolutely isn't a threat to shoot - and can easily cheat into the paint early.

So we agree that on that play Kessler did the right thing. Good. We can move on now.

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk