Jazz and Mid-Level Exception

[One Brow]

dude, are you just trolling right now?

No, I'm serious. You seem to have laid out a course that requires bigs to play heavier minutes than wings. Unless I have misunderstood some basic human anatomy, big struggle more with major minutes than wings do, generally. Depth at the big position is a commodity not to be treated lightly. "Some journeyman to rack up DNPs and 12-minute games" is usually a bad solution.

I'm curious why you think that course is superior.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

I just realized that I pinned this all on Burks getting these minutes in a particular role. However, we are more flexible than that.
It could just as easily be a Green-Hayfever-Williams tandem that gets burn.
Flexible.

Which would mean Burks would ride the pine? Not good. And no, both instances wouldn't break my heart. What would break my heart is seeing Burks ride the bench for a guy like Lee or Green who never was and never will be a solution.

 

[NAOS]

No, I'm serious. You seem to have laid out a course that requires bigs to play heavier minutes than wings. Unless I have misunderstood some basic human anatomy, big struggle more with major minutes than wings do, generally. Depth at the big position is a commodity not to be treated lightly. "Some journeyman to rack up DNPs and 12-minute games" is usually a bad solution.

I'm curious why you think that course is superior.

This isn't an argument in a vacuum. THIS PARTICULAR JAZZ TEAM struggled mightily with consistency on the wings last year. Maybe "struggle mightily" doesn't even capture it... it was some of the worst **** I've ever seen. It's likely that CJ, Bell, and Howard are all exiting the team.

On the other hand, I have no problem with Millsap playing 30+, Favors playing 30, and Kanter playing 20. Marvin can play spot minutes at the 4, and I've suggested trades for Royce White who can play the 4. As insurance you hope Sims make the roster.

On top of all this, OUR PARTICULAR ROSTER, is very thin at the PG, and if we stacked the wings as I've suggested, then we could eat up some of those minutes.

This is all about the distribution of talent on our roster.

(Or, you can trade Jefferson for Collison and I'll recalibrate this due to reinforcement arriving in the PG ranks)

 

[NAOS]

Which would mean Burks would ride the pine?

No.

Nowhere in my post did I suggest there were FEWER TOTAL MINUTES. I suggested an alternative distribution of minutes wherein Burks played ALL OF HIS 20-25 MINUTES as a SG plain and simple.

EDIT: a Burks-Hayfever-Marvin combo could work, too (provided Burks continues to improve on defense). I put Green in my initial suggestion because WE KNOW he can guard.

 

[Stifle Tower]

No.

Nowhere in my post did I suggest there were FEWER TOTAL MINUTES. I suggested an alternative distribution of minutes wherein Burks played ALL OF HIS 20-25 MINUTES as a SG plain and simple.

Burks with 25, Hayward with 35 (split between SG/SF) and Marvin Williams at 25. That leaves 11 for Carroll (or Murphy). For this season, I don't think Burks will get much game time as a PG. It would be great if he could eventually become the 2nd or 3rd PG. But I want him to first show he can be a dependable SG. I think the Jazz might need another wing. Then again, Millsap can play some SF if one of the others misses some games. KOC likely looks for a vet he can sign for 1 year with a TO for next. That leaves flexibility to go after a top-tier SF next season - if Marvin doesn't work out or opts out and goes elsewhere.

 

[NUMBERICA]

I just want to chime in here and mention that the Jazz have shown it's interest - multiple times - in having Burks play PG (lots of comments when he was drafted, actually backed up Tinsley for a game when injuries forced the Jazz's hand, and now Burks supposedly playing PG in summer league).

The Jazz have also added a PG that doesn't need the ball in his hands to be effective, and actually excels playing off of other ballhandlers.

Add that in to the fact that it seems like the Jazz are kind of frozen out of the young and/or elite world of PGs. Whether they truly believe Burks can be a PG or not, I think there's a good chance they're willing to explore Burks being a PG if for no other reason than that they want to have a young PG to grow with the team, in addition to KOC's belief that players large for their position naturally excel.

Just something to think about.

 

[NAOS]

I just want to chime in here and mention that the Jazz have shown it's interest - multiple times - in having Burks play PG (lots of comments when he was drafted, actually backed up Tinsley for a game when injuries forced the Jazz's hand, and now Burks supposedly playing PG in summer league).

The Jazz have also added a PG that doesn't need the ball in his hands to be effective, and actually excels playing off of other ballhandlers.

Add that in to the fact that it seems like the Jazz are kind of frozen out of the young and/or elite world of PGs. Whether they truly believe Burks can be a PG or not, I think there's a good chance they're willing to explore Burks being a PG if for no other reason than that they want to have a young PG to grow with the team, in addition to KOC's belief that players large for their position naturally excel.

Just something to think about.

thank you.

NUMBERICA bringing us back to first principles. I've been sketching the various forms this all might take.

 

[NAOS]

Burks with 25, Hayward with 35 (split between SG/SF) and Marvin Williams at 25. That leaves 11 for Carroll (or Murphy). For this season, I don't think Burks will get much game time as a PG. It would be great if he could eventually become the 2nd or 3rd PG. But I want him to first show he can be a dependable SG. I think the Jazz might need another wing. Then again, Millsap can play some SF if one of the others misses some games. KOC likely looks for a vet he can sign for 1 year with a TO for next. That leaves flexibility to go after a top-tier SF next season - if Marvin doesn't work out or opts out and goes elsewhere.

This is all fine. And, it's probably likely.
But, you are forced to live with certain questions: will Marvin work out? Will Carroll be able to hit the broad side of a barn? Will Murphy be able to step in when someone gets injured? Will Watson and/or Tinsley be effective another year older?

Adding Green for a couple million dollars solves a lot of these problems already.

 

[NAOS]

Since I've been berating the PG spot in this thread, let's also talk about San Antonio.

Their only PG is Parker, for whom everything is north to south. The instant he is forced east-west, he's been instructed to kick it to the wings where they pass it around the perimeter. Gary Neal, who backed him up last year, isn't a PG. Yes, he GUARDS the PG. All the while, Manu is initiating the offense.

In conclusion, the three best teams last year were very minimally committed to the PG.

Would I take DWill, CP3, Nash, or Rondo? Hell yes. Am I gonna ape the brand of ball I could play with them when I don't have them? **** no. Play on.

 

[billyshelby]

Sliding Millsap to the 3 for stretches is a much better solution than Lee. I'm sure KOC/Ty plan to give Burks some time at the 1. But not a regular rotation spot from game 1. And their primary goal is making sure he gets minutes. So if he can't handle the 1, he's going to need to play 2, and having Lee is only an impediment to that.

 

[idiot]

Jazz could do a sign and trade to get Courtney Lee or Danny Green using their remaining trade exception which is like 2-2.5 million or throwing half of the MLE at Lee and the other half at Green.

No way would either player agree to come here for that money. Lee will probably take full MLE or close to it, and Green perhaps only a bit less (or they might both get offers higher than that).

 

[NUMBERICA]

I like Green more than Lee for sure, and just for reference.

 

[idiot]

I like Green more than Lee for sure, and just for reference.

For the fit of Jazz now, I agree.

 

[NotDeadYet]

The problem with Green is he's a RFA, so we'd likely have to overpay to outbid the Spurs. Lee is now an UFA.
https://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/FreeAgents-12-13/nba-free-agents-2012-2013
KoC is all about accumulating assets at a minimal cost, and Lee would certainly be a great fit in Utah. Total team guy with the all-round game the Jazz brass like. There would be plenty of minutes to go around if Hayward played both b/u SF and SG. Burks b/u SG and b/u PG. Carroll would get his minutes whenever we needed an energy boost; not every night.
That would give us some serious QUALITY depth, IMO; we all know Carroll is a liability on offense...

 

[vj_74]

In conclusion, the three best teams last year were very minimally committed to the PG.

.

But they also had, at any point of time, and especially during clutch time,atleast two if not three very good ball handlers/creators on the floor having remarkable athleticism, who could also make shots themselves if and when needed. Do we have that? Even the Lakers have gone out and gotten a playmaking PG.All we have are Marvin and Hayward in the starting 5, besides the PG.
So no matter what model you are chasing after, you need top tier talent to implement that.
Just because Thunder are very good without a conventional PG, it doesnt mean we will be the same way. Where is our Durant and Harden?

 

[NAOS]

But they also had, at any point of time, and especially during clutch time,atleast two if not three very good ball handlers/creators on the floor having remarkable athleticism, who could also make shots themselves if and when needed. Do we have that? Even the Lakers have gone out and gotten a playmaking PG.All we have are Marvin and Hayward in the starting 5, besides the PG.
So no matter what model you are chasing after, you need top tier talent to implement that.
Just because Thunder are very good without a conventional PG, it doesnt mean we will be the same way. Where is our Durant and Harden?

I don't mean to be smug and throw your exact same argument back at you, but where's our "PG"?

 

[GVC]

Adding easily tradeable assets is almost always a good move. If you can get Lee at a reasonable dollar amount, you do it.