Jazz have 2 of the top 5 poorest defensive impact players.

[SoberasHotRod]

He had his best game of his season so recently that its even in his "last 5 games" list in NBA.com.... I mean even if most of his points came in the 4th against bench guys he scored 13 of his 30 points going against Chet or SGA in that OKC game where he posted the 30/7/3 line.We were probably too excited after the Summer League and thats the reason we have been disappointed thus far, but on a rookie scale and by comparing to other rookies, he has still outperformed his draft position. Just give it time and dont feed the trolls.

I thought I was pretty clear that I'm still really high on his potential. His highs will be how I view his potential, but his consistency will be how I view his likelihood of hitting his potential.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

The fact is that if we are serious about winning games we need to limit Keyonte's role (minutes or usage).

If you look up rookies with positive net ratings that have a usage % above 15% and were 19 or younger to start the season, the list is nobody. The closest player to meet that criteria is Podz who was 20 to start the season, and then after Podz you have guys that are much older rookies.

FWIW I don't think this Jazz team should be that serious about winning, and should continue to give Keyonte about 20 minutes a game and let him figure things out.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I thought I was pretty clear that I'm still really high on his potential. His highs will be how I view his potential, but his consistency will be how I view his likelihood of hitting his potential.

Some people just want to plug their ears and only see the good signs

 

[HermanG]

These are all good points but who is on the court with him shouldn't be the reason he can't make open shots and shouldn't be the reason his the worst player in the league.
He also didnt play with those guys in college and couldn't shoot or defend in college either.

I'm not going to spam the board with keyonte hate threads or anything and I'm rooting for the guy big time but up to this point in his college and pro career he has kinda sucked

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Couldnt defend in college? Based on what? All I've read from college scouting reports is that he put a lot of effort on defense, and the biggest negative they say is that his height will likely be taken advantage of.

Draftroom report even praised him:

Is a very pesky on-the-ball defender who gives good effort and takes the task personally. Might not be a big steals and blocks guy at the next level but can hold his own against 1’s and 2’s.

Also btw, he shot 41% from 3 in his senior year in high school, so its not like the pure form is the only evidence he can shoot.

For the record, I can also see that he has played poorly. Thats not hard to see. But he is a rookie, who was projected to take few years to adapt to NBA, and people are losing confidence after 26 games played... He is ahead of his projected curve, which is why I'm fighting anyone on this subject, and feel very confident that eventually I will be proven right on this.

 

[HermanG]

Clarkson got pissed on more than key last night by a ton.

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In the game thread, sure. But not really elsewhere. TU is hating him hard with Fosto and jom always in his coattails, and now apparently you and Cy are joining that party.

Its way way way too early to hate on him. He is ahead of the curve, which is also why Hardy insists on playing him. He sees the same warts we see, but he also sees a lot of things we dont (like game plan execution).

 

[HermanG]

The fact is that if we are serious about winning games we need to limit Keyonte's role (minutes or usage).

If you look up rookies with positive net ratings that have a usage % above 15% and were 19 or younger to start the season, the list is nobody. The closest player to meet that criteria is Podz who was 20 to start the season, and then after Podz you have guys that are much older rookies.

FWIW I don't think this Jazz team should be that serious about winning, and should continue to give Keyonte about 20 minutes a game and let him figure things out.

So you are saying that if we bench Keyonte and play Dunn, Clarkson, Sexton and THT for guards, we are noticably better, than with Keyonte replacing any one of those 4?

 

[Tremendous Upside]

So you are saying that if we bench Keyonte and play Dunn, Clarkson, Sexton and THT for guards, we are noticably better, than with Keyonte replacing any one of those 4?

Not sure you remember but I wanted Keyonte to start. Back then, all the other guards were playing horribly – especially THT, who was a disaster at PG – but lately Sexton and Dunn in particular have been head and shoulders above him and Keyonte is looking 100% overwhelmed.

Since we're apparently still not picking a lane, I don't know what to say. Maybe letting Keyonte stink IS the plan. Who knows.

 

[str8line]

Olynyk leads the team in DBPM and is 4th in Defensive Win Shares.

KO is a good player.

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[str8line]

The fact is that if we are serious about winning games we need to limit Keyonte's role (minutes or usage).

If you look up rookies with positive net ratings that have a usage % above 15% and were 19 or younger to start the season, the list is nobody. The closest player to meet that criteria is Podz who was 20 to start the season, and then after Podz you have guys that are much older rookies.

FWIW I don't think this Jazz team should be that serious about winning, and should continue to give Keyonte about 20 minutes a game and let him figure things out.

He does go hard. Willing to hit the ground. Can't teach toughness.

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[Saint Cy of JFC]

In the game thread, sure. But not really elsewhere. TU is hating him hard with Fosto and jom always in his coattails, and now apparently you and Cy are joining that party.

Its way way way too early to hate on him. He is ahead of the curve, which is also why Hardy insists on playing him. He sees the same warts we see, but he also sees a lot of things we dont (like game plan execution).

Good lord lmao. Far from hate.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

KO is a good player.

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Kelly is the THT of defense. He actually does a lot of great stuff, but the lowlights stick out like a sore thumb.

 

[HermanG]

Good lord lmao. Far from hate.

Ok that is a fair call out. You havent hated on him, just cooled off maybe. Throwing him on the trades is probably the worst you've said, and that isn't hating really.

 

[fishonjazz]

The fact is that if we are serious about winning games we need to limit Keyonte's role (minutes or usage).

If you look up rookies with positive net ratings that have a usage % above 15% and were 19 or younger to start the season, the list is nobody. The closest player to meet that criteria is Podz who was 20 to start the season, and then after Podz you have guys that are much older rookies.

FWIW I don't think this Jazz team should be that serious about winning, and should continue to give Keyonte about 20 minutes a game and let him figure things out.

Agreed. I would continue to roll with Keyonte despite the struggles. Also roll with kessler, ochai, sexton, lauri, simone, and taylor. Tighten that rotation out a ton.

 

[fishonjazz]

In the game thread, sure. But not really elsewhere. TU is hating him hard with Fosto and jom always in his coattails, and now apparently you and Cy are joining that party.

Its way way way too early to hate on him. He is ahead of the curve, which is also why Hardy insists on playing him. He sees the same warts we see, but he also sees a lot of things we dont (like game plan execution).

Lol. I been hating on clarkson since the start of the season. Im the play the young guys (keyonte included) dude.

 

[fishonjazz]

So you are saying that if we bench Keyonte and play Dunn, Clarkson, Sexton and THT for guards, we are noticably better, than with Keyonte replacing any one of those 4?

Nope. In the post you quoted he said he thinks that keyonte should keep getting at least 20 minutes per night.

As to your question, from what people have been posting keyonte is like the worst player in the entire league so far this season so yes?

 

[HermanG]

Not sure you remember but I wanted Keyonte to start. Back then, all the other guards were playing horribly – especially THT, who was a disaster at PG – but lately Sexton and Dunn in particular have been head and shoulders above him and Keyonte is looking 100% overwhelmed.

Since we're apparently still not picking a lane, I don't know what to say. Maybe letting Keyonte stink IS the plan. Who knows.

I completely agree that Sexton and Dunn have been the best guards in this recent stretch of better basketball. Now give me cogent analysis on why Clarkson or THT is a better play than Keyonte?

Last game THT came in, looked composed for all of 3 minutes and then went full gunslinger on offense while showing his best traffic cone imitation on Brandon Ingram. Clarkson on the other hand missed 8 of 11 shots and had 6 turnovers.

The development minutes arent there because of the sake of development, its just because playing the other 4 while benching Keyonte is maybe a 1% improvement on overall performance. I'm not even sure that is true since the heavier the dose is on the trio of JC/Sexton/THT the more Lauri is starving for touches and spectating as those 3 take turns driving into the paint.

With all his flaws, it should still be pretty easy to see that Key defers to the better shooters much more often than the others. I mean I had to go and verify and below the FGA per36 for our most trigger happy guys. Its super sad that Lauri is actually #2. Keyonte ranks 4th among our guards, and he has more assists per36 (7.0) than anyone but Dunn (8.1), tied with THT (also 7.0).

 

[fishonjazz]

I completely agree that Sexton and Dunn have been the best guards in this recent stretch of better basketball. Now give me cogent analysis on why Clarkson or THT is a better play than Keyonte?

Last game THT came in, looked composed for all of 3 minutes and then went full gunslinger on offense while showing his best traffic cone imitation on Brandon Ingram. Clarkson on the other hand missed 8 of 11 shots and had 6 turnovers.

The development minutes arent there because of the sake of development, its just because playing the other 4 while benching Keyonte is maybe a 1% improvement on overall performance. I'm not even sure that is true since the heavier the dose is on the trio of JC/Sexton/THT the more Lauri is starving for touches and spectating as those 3 take turns driving into the paint.

With all his flaws, it should still be pretty easy to see that Key defers to the better shooters much more often than the others. I mean I had to go and verify and below the FGA per36 for our most trigger happy guys. Its super sad that Lauri is actually #2. Keyonte ranks 4th among our guards, and he has more assists per36 (7.0) than anyone but Dunn (8.1), tied with THT (also 7.0).

View attachment 15662

Yep, this is why basically EVERYONE agrees that keyonte should continue to get minutes. Take a deep breath bro.

 

[HermanG]

Nope. In the post you quoted he said he thinks that keyonte should keep getting at least 20 minutes per night.

As to your question, from what people have been posting keyonte is like the worst player in the entire league so far this season so yes?

You should ask yourself who are the ones posting that? There is one poster in particular who is leading this charge, which is @Tremendous Upside. I think he is also the only poster in addition to you who has said directly that Keyonte is the worst player in the NBA. I'm not sure if anyone else has even said he is the worst player in Jazz.

Truth is his TS% is very bad and that is his biggest wart. His turnovers are not bad at all for a rookie, despite people trying to push that narrative and harping on every bad pass. His AST/TO ratio is better than Sextons or Clarksons. He is second to KO in total assists, and actually defers to Lauri more often than most of the other guards.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Herman G must be Keyonte's relative or something

Herman G.....

Herman George, it makes sense now.

 

[fishonjazz]

You should ask yourself who are the ones posting that? There is one poster in particular who is leading this charge, which is @Tremendous Upside. I think he is also the only poster in addition to you who has said directly that Keyonte is the worst player in the NBA. I'm not sure if anyone else has even said he is the worst player in Jazz.

Truth is his TS% is very bad and that is his biggest wart. His turnovers are not bad at all for a rookie, despite people trying to push that narrative and harping on every bad pass. His AST/TO ratio is better than Sextons or Clarksons. He is second to KO in total assists, and actually defers to Lauri more often than most of the other guards.

You should go through the gamethread from last night and count how many posts were critical of keyonte while the game was still ongoing. See how many were critical of clarkson while the game was ongoing. Then take a deep breath.
Also, you will find something amazing if you stop posting these posts. The posts criticizing keyonte will go down tremendously. What you are doing currently is continuing the discussion of criticizing keyonte. I know you are defending him but by doing that you are keeping the convo going.

Now take another deep breath.