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there is no reason to "protect" non-reproducing social units. They have no reason outside themselves to exist.

so say someone makes a machine that does no work. wheels spin, gears grind, lights flash. who is gonna oil it or turn the switch "on"??? there's no reason to.

the reason Russia and Japan, say, today give some acknowledgment to couples having kids.... and the reason we should give tax breaks or whatever to reproductive couples, is because without expanding population or at least replacing population, our society.... indeed our government.... will wind down to nothing without it.
 
there is no reason to "protect" non-reproducing social units. They have no reason outside themselves to exist.

so say someone makes a machine that does no work. wheels spin, gears grind, lights flash. who is gonna oil it or turn the switch "on"??? there's no reason to.

the reason Russia and Japan, say, today give some acknowledgment to couples having kids.... and the reason we should give tax breaks or whatever to reproductive couples, is because without expanding population or at least replacing population, our society.... indeed our government.... will wind down to nothing without it.

But what's wrong with 'nothing'?


Let's say there's no people, no earth, no universe, ... there is simply 'nothing'. What would be the problem with that?
 
But what's wrong with 'nothing'?


Let's say there's no people, no earth, no universe, ... there is simply 'nothing'. What would be the problem with that?

OK, but what would the buzzards have to live for.

imo, srs.... there is a place for this, and anyone who really doesn't see a problem with it..... well..... pretty much this is your future.

Old theologians I think called it Hell. Jazzy new agers might picture it as a black hole. Pretty much it's a bit hot, pretty much you're stuck and can't get out.

dunno..... I think there's another side to black holes..... the side where stuff is coming out, maybe indistinguishable from a big bang.

it's square one.
 
OK, but what would the buzzards have to live for.

imo, srs.... there is a place for this, and anyone who really doesn't see a problem with it..... well..... pretty much this is your future.

Old theologians I think called it Hell. Jazzy new agers might picture it as a black hole. Pretty much it's a bit hot, pretty much you're stuck and can't get out.

dunno..... I think there's another side to black holes..... the side where stuff is coming out, maybe indistinguishable from a big bang.

it's square one.

I'm thinking about the situation where nothing exists, not even hell or black hole. No you, nor I neither, either in physical forms or spiritual form.
 
I'm thinking about the situation where nothing exists, not even hell or black hole. No you, nor I neither, either in physical forms or spiritual form.

the minimal requirements for any ideas involve the existence of a thinker, and a context real or imagined.

I worry about you. why imagine what is not, what will never be. things exist, and can't stop existing.

Stupid Christians (some) imagine a God that didn't exist, who spoke a word and made everything. unspeakable nonsense. creation involves organizing stuff for a reason, for a purpose.

Even the Stalinist-compliant V.I. Vernadski, a naturalist/communist found stuff happening that couldn't be explained except that some "Life-force" was at work intelligently, building the basic context or circumstances necessary for Life. He escaped communist hell-hole prison camps by claiming this proved the inexorable march towards the prophesied communist utopia.

I say that anyone who denies the existence and purposes of God is left needing to invent "God" for themselves. In short, you can't avoid the choice, either accept "what is" or invent an "alternative".

You should quit believing godless philosophy and instead believe there is a God with a plan. This is "True Statism". There is plenty of evidence all around you.

If I were you, I wouldn't sell the business, but instead do it really good. Maybe hire some landscape workers/gardeners and contract with folks to take care of their places. Working with living things ought to be good for the soul.
 
A new topic.... well, maybe just a revisited topic, I'm not gonna read this whole thread to see if there is indeed some wretched little nook of human enquiry I haven't visited already in here......

Love.... the essential, necessary "human thing".... proves "God".... the only competent explanation for our existence, or our nature.
 
Like most "virtues".... the presumed "good" things we have some kind of obligatory duty of patronage towards.... the definition requires not only a positive description but many precautionary "caveat" sorts of negative limits. We are not talking about "love" if it is exploitative or selfish.... whether you are thinking of sex or any other level of human interaction. The impulse of self-preservation or self-interest may be real.... really good or really bad. It is necessary as a form of self-love, a necessary precursor to also loving and helping others....., really. Evil counterfeits of "love" do not benefit either self or others.

We are also not talking about "love" if there is any kind of rational idea about it. Any sort of propaganda, ideology, or religious or psychological or mystical baggage entailed.

Lots of garbage claims to "Love".

The true claim is virtually on the level of breathing.... involuntary, unconscious...... unplanned.... like our very existence in it's most primal reality. "Love" defined as an impulse, an instinct, to promote life. Yes we can love ourselves, others, other beings.... plants, animals....the whole living world.

A human being the size of a grain of rice, recording a heartbeat on ultrasound, already possesses this kind of love.

What kind of a cretin will kill this Life? A delusional arrogant person, an irresponsible, abusive man? A desperate woman misled to betray every good impulse of the human heart, someone propagandized to be ashamed of the fundamental goodness of Life... a human possessed by some ideology or self-justifying political agenda.... say a belief that human population expansion on planet earth is an existential threat to all Life.
Like Bill Gates. Those of us who, for such "reason", cannot imagine another "solution". A human being with willful denial of imagination.... imagination being the mainspring of all progress and development, even of physical "Life" itself.
 
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@OneLove.....your question is the mainspring of this theme.

Perhaps the most dismal aspect of our fascist modern era of secular humanism/progressive "world management" ideology, is the denial of the value of Life. The whole of the history of the twentieth century, the last fifty years of the nineteenth, and up until about now... has been set out ideologically, pedagogically, as imperative transcendent Truth, a Truth that denies God or any self-existing reality such as a "Life-Force", even that which the communist-compliant naturalist VI Vernadsky wrote about.

Vernadsky recorded roots emitting photons of light, light that was essential to the photochemistry required for growth, even underground....rocks undergoing organic change.... all kinds of minerals in geological processes becoming something supportive of Life, where no such support existed before. Some of these processes were necessary pre-conditions to the formation of the first biomolecular components of things we would call "living". They were not the result of statistical probabilities or chemical reactions per se, and could not be considered "random", but were actually purposed events. Hence, the necessity for claiming the existence of a "Life-Force".

todays scientists, largely trying to comply with evolutionary theory, are nevertheless finding such processes happening, which they say augments the probabilities for their theories..... still something "happening" for reason, purposed reason, driven who God-knows-what fundamental "Life-Force".

Some more religiously-motivated "scientists", trying to develop explanations consistent with their personal idiosyncratic concepts of Biblical texts, argue for "intelligent design". I consider their position to be about as "scientific" as evolutionary theorists trying to develop explanations consistent with their ideology. It is circuitous logic, unscientific in nature, hammering away at reality to make it fit a concept simple enough to satisfy ourselves that we "know".

Older religions such as those of the India subcontinent, the south of Asia and China, have long resorted to "nature" or "the way things are" as a sort of god-concept. We are part of a process, the process is beyond our knowing, we must accept the process and align ourselves with it. The concept of karma is the idea of virtue. We reap what we sow. Some say Jesus brought such values into the Judeo-Christian construct..... who knows where Man first conceived it.... long before any historical or archaeological evidence we know of so far....

I FIND THAT BELIEVING IN A FUNDAMENTAL REALITY THAT GOES DEEPER THAN OUR THEORIES IS NECESSARY, BECAUSE ALL OUR THEORIES SO FAR ARE PRETTY MUCH CRAP.

Marxists love to set up straw man arguments... of their own invention... to prove somehow that their version of reality is "Truth". I find that Marxism is a cheap vaudeville routine, a puppetshow of sorts, that has no contact with any reality. It is chiefly exploited by fascists, the worst sort of statists, as a sort of mesmerizing propaganda routine.

really, really stupid stuff. How could anyone really believe it? Well, the purpetrators of it at the top really don't believe it. If you believe it, you are a dupe. It's nothing but a big lie. And the little folk are the big dupes.

But the idea of "God" is something else. Is there some physical entity in existence, anywhere, with a kind of power to effect creation or create an objectively true moral reality?

At the most primal level, that reality is "Love". It is the "Life-Force", the how and why of how we came into being as we are. Yes, there are negative defining limits, and a positive kernel of Truth.

The Catholics, in their Trinity concept, sought to entail as the almighty creator of everything, their God of scripture. The Trinity would be a whole 'nuther essay. Mormons, in their "Heavenly Father" concept, sought to define "God" as a human being of transcendent principles.... virtues entailing creative powers.... which we ourselves could aspire towards. In either case, and in every other human concept of God, the origin actually eludes us. It is an assertion of a sort of operator, necessary to reality.... a sort of "Theory of Everything" that defies reduction to a mathematical equation.

But even that most primal of definitions also defines ourselves, in our humanity..... and perhaps all life. There exists the impulse to create, to propagate, to extend, to develop, to progress.

People who deny this fundamental reality are the worst of liars in making the claim to be "progressives", and the worst of deceived, delusional cretins to equate their campaign to limit Life with "progress". They are pure hellish regressives, they are the adherents of the worst of oppressive regimes throughout history.

MAGA, the "Make America Great Again" slogan, was a plucking of the CFR fascist lion's whiskers. A political crusade to shut down human progress, to reduce human population, to place all mankind under non-elective modern slavery has been offended by the so-called populist ignoramuses who believe mankind can have a better life.

@OneLove, an ordinary gardener surely should see the value of propagating life.

And, I just can't resist a bit of humor.

Gardeners, I am told, actually know a lot.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078841/

Some folks are equating Trump with Chauncey Gardiner in the movie "Being There":

http://deadline.com/2017/03/donald-trump-peter-sellers-chauncey-gardiner-being-there-1202047747/

Of course, when you have Meryl Streep and Robert Redford invoking such nonsense in exciting the anti-Trumpists to riot, it's like sock puppets with straw for brains explaining "God".
 
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Trump is actually a deeply philosophical sort of genius. At least, I'm sure, he has had the courage to actually stand up for the right idea on Life.

 
@OneLove.....your question is the mainspring of this theme.

Perhaps the most dismal aspect of our fascist modern era of secular humanism/progressive "world management" ideology, is the denial of the value of Life. The whole of the history of the twentieth century, the last fifty years of the nineteenth, and up until about now... has been set out ideologically, pedagogically, as imperative transcendent Truth, a Truth that denies God or any self-existing reality such as a "Life-Force", even that which the communist-compliant naturalist VI Vernadsky wrote about.

Vernadsky recorded roots emitting photons of light, light that was essential to the photochemistry required for growth, even underground....rocks undergoing organic change.... all kinds of minerals in geological processes becoming something supportive of Life, where no such support existed before. Some of these processes were necessary pre-conditions to the formation of the first biomolecular components of things we would call "living". They were not the result of statistical probabilities or chemical reactions per se, and could not be considered "random", but were actually purposed events. Hence, the necessity for claiming the existence of a "Life-Force".

todays scientists, largely trying to comply with evolutionary theory, are nevertheless finding such processes happening, which they say augments the probabilities for their theories..... still something "happening" for reason, purposed reason, driven who God-knows-what fundamental "Life-Force".

Some more religiously-motivated "scientists", trying to develop explanations consistent with their personal idiosyncratic concepts of Biblical texts, argue for "intelligent design". I consider their position to be about as "scientific" as evolutionary theorists trying to develop explanations consistent with their ideology. It is circuitous logic, unscientific in nature, hammering away at reality to make it fit a concept simple enough to satisfy ourselves that we "know".

Older religions such as those of the India subcontinent, the south of Asia and China, have long resorted to "nature" or "the way things are" as a sort of god-concept. We are part of a process, the process is beyond our knowing, we must accept the process and align ourselves with it. The concept of karma is the idea of virtue. We reap what we sow. Some say Jesus brought such values into the Judeo-Christian construct..... who knows where Man first conceived it.... long before any historical or archaeological evidence we know of so far....

I FIND THAT BELIEVING IN A FUNDAMENTAL REALITY THAT GOES DEEPER THAN OUR THEORIES IS NECESSARY, BECAUSE ALL OUR THEORIES SO FAR ARE PRETTY MUCH CRAP.

Marxists love to set up straw man arguments... of their own invention... to prove somehow that their version of reality is "Truth". I find that Marxism is a cheap vaudeville routine, a puppetshow of sorts, that has no contact with any reality. It is chiefly exploited by fascists, the worst sort of statists, as a sort of mesmerizing propaganda routine.

really, really stupid stuff. How could anyone really believe it? Well, the purpetrators of it at the top really don't believe it. If you believe it, you are a dupe. It's nothing but a big lie. And the little folk are the big dupes.

But the idea of "God" is something else. Is there some physical entity in existence, anywhere, with a kind of power to effect creation or create an objectively true moral reality?

At the most primal level, that reality is "Love". It is the "Life-Force", the how and why of how we came into being as we are. Yes, there are negative defining limits, and a positive kernel of Truth.

The Catholics, in their Trinity concept, sought to entail as the almighty creator of everything, their God of scripture. The Trinity would be a whole 'nuther essay. Mormons, in their "Heavenly Father" concept, sought to define "God" as a human being of transcendent principles.... virtues entailing creative powers.... which we ourselves could aspire towards. In either case, and in every other human concept of God, the origin actually eludes us. It is an assertion of a sort of operator, necessary to reality.... a sort of "Theory of Everything" that defies reduction to a mathematical equation.

But even that most primal of definitions also defines ourselves, in our humanity..... and perhaps all life. There exists the impulse to create, to propagate, to extend, to develop, to progress.

People who deny this fundamental reality are the worst of liars in making the claim to be "progressives", and the worst of deceived, delusional cretins to equate their campaign to limit Life with "progress". They are pure hellish regressives, they are the adherents of the worst of oppressive regimes throughout history.

MAGA, the "Make America Great Again" slogan, was a plucking of the CFR fascist lion's whiskers. A political crusade to shut down human progress, to reduce human population, to place all mankind under non-elective modern slavery has been offended by the so-called populist ignoramuses who believe mankind can have a better life.

@OneLove, an ordinary gardener surely should see the value of propagating life.

And, I just can't resist a bit of humor.

Gardeners, I am told, actually know a lot.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078841/

Some folks are equating Trump with Chauncey Gardiner in the movie "Being There":

http://deadline.com/2017/03/donald-trump-peter-sellers-chauncey-gardiner-being-there-1202047747/

Of course, when you have Meryl Streep and Robert Redford invoking such nonsense in exciting the anti-Trumpists to riot, it's like sock puppets with straw for brains explaining "God".

There are experiences that simply cannot be encompassed or conveyed in words, but people try to convey these experiences as best they can. People who fear death, and that's probably most of us, are often just as afraid to live. It does not have to be that way. There is inspiration and Truth in each of these accounts:

https://www.nderf.org/Experiences/exceptional.html

3885. Scott W NDE 2/15/2015. NDE 7578. I did feel consciousness forming but not like we know or understand. It was just doing its task. It was doing what it’s supposed to do and that’s all it knew. Then it became clear all of it, all things knew what it was supposed to do. Something was directing it. I could tell, even though it had consciousness, it seemed as though it had surrendered its Will and accepted it’s truth to the Creator. Then my Grandma reached for me and took my hand as we started back. The universe was full, absolutely full of strings of light and energy. They were pulsing, they were moving, and we were in it, part of it and it a part of us. DNA stretched for eons; memories, connected, intertwined but all moving according to the Light. I could see molecules, atoms connecting, intersecting, building and becoming new life forms and consciousnesses. Galaxies, stars, fish, trees, air, water, man are all patterned forms, built from all over the universe. Then we were back in the field, but it didn’t stop there. I looked at my Grandmother and the Light. Everything opened up, illumination poured through me, out of me and in me. It can’t be changed, or threatened. It can’t be manipulated, or colored. There are no Illusions or fairy tales about it. It’s here. Each is at its own time, in its own evolution, doing its own reality, living its own consciousness. We are part of it and it a part of us. We truly have nothing to fear, we are really loved. There is a power so great, that it can only be called God.
Exceptional NDE due to cardiac arrest at age 42. Remarkable experience in heavenly realm. Astounding spiritual insights.
 
There are experiences that simply cannot be encompassed or conveyed in words, but people try to convey these experiences as best they can. People who fear death, and that's probably most of us, are often just as afraid to live. It does not have to be that way. There is inspiration and Truth in each of these accounts:

https://www.nderf.org/Experiences/exceptional.html

3885. Scott W NDE 2/15/2015. NDE 7578. I did feel consciousness forming but not like we know or understand. It was just doing its task. It was doing what it’s supposed to do and that’s all it knew. Then it became clear all of it, all things knew what it was supposed to do. Something was directing it. I could tell, even though it had consciousness, it seemed as though it had surrendered its Will and accepted it’s truth to the Creator. Then my Grandma reached for me and took my hand as we started back. The universe was full, absolutely full of strings of light and energy. They were pulsing, they were moving, and we were in it, part of it and it a part of us. DNA stretched for eons; memories, connected, intertwined but all moving according to the Light. I could see molecules, atoms connecting, intersecting, building and becoming new life forms and consciousnesses. Galaxies, stars, fish, trees, air, water, man are all patterned forms, built from all over the universe. Then we were back in the field, but it didn’t stop there. I looked at my Grandmother and the Light. Everything opened up, illumination poured through me, out of me and in me. It can’t be changed, or threatened. It can’t be manipulated, or colored. There are no Illusions or fairy tales about it. It’s here. Each is at its own time, in its own evolution, doing its own reality, living its own consciousness. We are part of it and it a part of us. We truly have nothing to fear, we are really loved. There is a power so great, that it can only be called God.
Exceptional NDE due to cardiac arrest at age 42. Remarkable experience in heavenly realm. Astounding spiritual insights.

Thank you, Red. This is a great link. I spent some time reading through numerous accounts.

I have never had a NDE myself. One nephew related to me his account. In his account, I was "there". I have to just make space for accepting such an account because of the material, objective facts of all that he went though, and the experience he reported. We do not have all the information, especially in relation to time, necessary to define what was seen.

I have seen events long ahead in the future, known things unknowable except through another point of view, another place, a different time. No, I'm not Dr. Who. I have had dreams. Without drugs or anything other than inherent capabilities in consciousness. Almost everything concerned my own life personally.

with some exceptions.

walking along a river dike in the Philippines in May 1972, we went down some stairs some fifty or more feet to the base of the dike. It was a flood-control levee. The river was even lower than the land outside the channel, and it all was within thirty miles of the sea. Coming inland for about twenty miles was an expanse of fishponds, part of the productive ag enterprises hopefully protected by the dike. If you could just get the water out to the sea.

But I saw a flood in my mind's eye, and told the poor farmer the dike would fail and he'd be flooded out.

In June and July of that year, a series of seven typhoon moved across that part of Luzon Island. The big dam upriver did not fail, but it was threatened and water had to be released. The dike was not adequate, water had be released out of the channel where ever it could be.. I believe the dike did fail upstream but my recollection on that is vague. Only about twenty miles upstream and the river had a deep natural channel. I used to go over the bridge there almost every day.

The area was flooded for over a month. In an area that was essentially sea level, the high-water mark was generally about ten feet above normally dry ground....

It was not a fast-moving flood. We could walk through areas where it was only two feet or less deep, and little boats with what seemed like lawnmower engines could get around in deeper areas.

And yes, my companion missionary was mystified by what I said, but kept his silence.



The area is near Mt. Pinatubo, the volcano that was about 7000 ft above sea level, but is not over 15000 feet above sea level, and that exact spot, that river was later filled with ash.....
 
So I just googled the flood event. Here it is on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoon_Rita_(1972)

yes, I was in Hagunoy, Bulacan Province when US Helicopters from Clark Air Base dropped sacks of rice on the city and church buildings' roofs from only about thirty feet, some lowered by pallets and ropes on pulleys I think.

At any rate, it was impressive seeing people scrambling across those rusty tin roofs.....
 
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And here is a sort of brief survey of the area's flood problems generally..... considered to be increasing due to a number of factors....

file:///C:/Users/Mary%20Ann/AppData/Local/Packages/Microsoft.MicrosoftEdge_8wekyb3d8bbwe/TempState/Downloads/164-227-1-PB.pdf

opps..... dunno if that link works: here's where I got it:

Worsening Floods around Northern Manila Bay, Philippines ...
116.50.242.171/PSSC/index.php/psr01/article/download/... Proxy Highlight

Bulacan Province and the Metro Manila's coastal KAMANAVA suburbs received

It's like reading a news story from my home town, everything is familiar.
 
And here is a sort of brief survey of the area's flood problems generally..... considered to be increasing due to a number of factors....

file:///C:/Users/Mary%20Ann/AppData/Local/Packages/Microsoft.MicrosoftEdge_8wekyb3d8bbwe/TempState/Downloads/164-227-1-PB.pdf

oops.... dunno if that link works. Here's where I got it:

Worsening Floods around Northern Manila Bay, Philippines ...
116.50.242.171/PSSC/index.php/psr01/article/download/... Proxy Highlight

Bulacan Province and the Metro Manila's coastal KAMANAVA suburbs received


It's like reading a news story from my home town, everything is familiar.
 
Quick question, what is the difference between murder and killing animals for food? If we think of human as the superior being, then yes there is a difference. But if all living things are equal then aren't we 'murdering' other specifies by killing for food?


The reason I ask is this because I saw this video and it made my heart sink.





Who are we to take these calves away from their mother?
 
But the idea of "God" is something else. Is there some physical entity in existence, anywhere, with a kind of power to effect creation or create an objectively true moral reality?

But what is the evidence for the existence of God other than the fact that we have 'faith' that he exists?
 
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