Longest Thread Ever

[babe]

But what is the evidence for the existence of God other than the fact that we have 'faith' that he exists?

what is your definition of "evidence".

there is white streak in the sky. what evidence do you have that it is really there?>

vision.... wth is that? where does it exist? whatever image you "see" somehow "shows up" in your mind. If you close your eyes, it can just go away, or you can still "see" it by imagination.

being unwilling to believe something that is obvious, demanding "evidence", is simply a self-justification for willful disbelief.

scientists have long accepted observation as "evidence", without physical measurement or instrumental verification of any kind. A scientist can record "measurements" as seen on a thermometer, and call it evidence. You are simply saying that you won't accept a certain kind of evidence. Well you are denying that the obvious exists.

your argument is evident in your earlier question... what if we don't exist? You actually want to think it's possible that you don't exist, or that there would be no effect or consequence of your thoughts, or actions, that you are a dream in the uncomprehending "mind" of a non-existent oh... fish, maybe... or whatever.

So the Bible says "God" and attributes actions; Moses goes up on the mountain and there's a lot of noise and clouds visible to the folks back in the camp, and comes down with some stone tablets. Thousands of people called that "evidence", and there it was.... a covenant people of "God". This was pretty much the dominant story line for a small nation for oh a few thousand years. But somehow, it is necessary for a Marxist to discredit it. Whatever it takes. Pretty much shows the Marxists to believe it more than most people care to..... quite a few philosophers have noted this fundamental incongruity in human nature.... how "disbelievers" behave with great determination to address the thesis they think they must refute, strongly enough to make most.... more casual believers.... look simply disinterested in the foundational thesis of their faith.

you don't accept the story, who knows, somebody made it up, wrote it down and told it to a lot of people.

you watch TV and some talking heads read some scripts handed to them by their managers. You believe this, you won't believe the Bible. Obviously, you are making a choice.

If you did not exist, thoughts, questions, and choices would be as unreal as eyesight. You just refuse to let the idea control you, and expend inordinate effort making up denial logic routines to prove to yourself.... if no one else....that you are perfectly willing to take the time of day to deny something you accept as reality just enough to believe a denial will be somehow helpful to justify an alternate course.

yeah, I get it. One of the very human capacities is imagination. We all use the "back door" of our mind to escape whatever we don't want that appears at the front door. We shape the image of a "reality" necessary to do what we want with minimal cognitive dissonance. Belief follows choice, whether selection of thought or action.

ordinarily, except for such determined disbelief.... the plants and animals, the sea, the sky, everything we see, touch, smell, taste or hear.... or imagine... is proof complete that somehow these were created.... by some competent self-existing actor of whatever kind. It is always a conjecture when we simply don't have the object of our discussion more or less sitting on the table where we can see it, measure it, photograph it, taste it, or whatever else we could ever conceive of as "evidence" or "proof". But how silly..... there's the table, and we know someone made it. A carpenter, obviously.

so here's the world. We know it was made somehow. We call the maker "God". Whatever "God" may be.

If you read the Bible, and allow it a certain reality.... accept that someone wrote it, that thousands have read it found it systematically credible over thousands of years, you might become more open to belief.

But here's a secret.... a sort of "Law of Gravity".... a law of human nature.... you won't believe something that is fundamentally at odds with what you choose to do. So, anyway, missionaries of the Christian faith, aside from teaching the love of Jesus, cannot avoid teaching "repentance", changing our line of actions to conform to the thesis preached. It's the way we must do to begin to believe. without being willing to change our ways, it is simply impossible to change the way we think.

 

[ONE LOVE]

what is your definition of "evidence".

there is white streak in the sky. what evidence do you have that it is really there?>

vision.... wth is that? where does it exist? whatever image you "see" somehow "shows up" in your mind. If you close your eyes, it can just go away, or you can still "see" it by imagination.

being unwilling to believe something that is obvious, demanding "evidence", is simply a self-justification for willful disbelief.

scientists have long accepted observation as "evidence", without physical measurement or instrumental verification of any kind. A scientist can record "measurements" as seen on a thermometer, and call it evidence. You are simply saying that you won't accept a certain kind of evidence. Well you are denying that the obvious exists.

your argument is evident in your earlier question... what if we don't exist? You actually want to think it's possible that you don't exist, or that there would be no effect or consequence of your thoughts, or actions, that you are a dream in the uncomprehending "mind" of a non-existent oh... fish, maybe... or whatever.

So the Bible says "God" and attributes actions; Moses goes up on the mountain and there's a lot of noise and clouds visible to the folks back in the camp, and comes down with some stone tablets. Thousands of people called that "evidence", and there it was.... a covenant people of "God". This was pretty much the dominant story line for a small nation for oh a few thousand years. But somehow, it is necessary for a Marxist to discredit it. Whatever it takes. Pretty much shows the Marxists to believe it more than most people care to..... quite a few philosophers have noted this fundamental incongruity in human nature.... how "disbelievers" behave with great determination to address the thesis they think they must refute, strongly enough to make most.... more casual believers.... look simply disinterested in the foundational thesis of their faith.

you don't accept the story, who knows, somebody made it up, wrote it down and told it to a lot of people.

you watch TV and some talking heads read some scripts handed to them by their managers. You believe this, you won't believe the Bible. Obviously, you are making a choice.

If you did not exist, thoughts, questions, and choices would be as unreal as eyesight. You just refuse to let the idea control you, and expend inordinate effort making up denial logic routines to prove to yourself.... if no one else....that you are perfectly willing to take the time of day to deny something you accept as reality just enough to believe a denial will be somehow helpful to justify an alternate course.

yeah, I get it. One of the very human capacities is imagination. We all use the "back door" of our mind to escape whatever we don't want that appears at the front door. We shape the image of a "reality" necessary to do what we want with minimal cognitive dissonance. Belief follows choice, whether selection of thought or action.

ordinarily, except for such determined disbelief.... the plants and animals, the sea, the sky, everything we see, touch, smell, taste or hear.... or imagine... is proof complete that somehow these were created.... by some competent self-existing actor of whatever kind. It is always a conjecture when we simply don't have the object of our discussion more or less sitting on the table where we can see it, measure it, photograph it, taste it, or whatever else we could ever conceive of as "evidence" or "proof". But how silly..... there's the table, and we know someone made it. A carpenter, obviously.

so here's the world. We know it was made somehow. We call the maker "God". Whatever "God" may be.

If you read the Bible, and allow it a certain reality.... accept that someone wrote it, that thousands have read it found it systematically credible over thousands of years, you might become more open to belief.

But here's a secret.... a sort of "Law of Gravity".... a law of human nature.... you won't believe something that is fundamentally at odds with what you choose to do. So, anyway, missionaries of the Christian faith, aside from teaching the love of Jesus, cannot avoid teaching "repentance", changing our line of actions to conform to the thesis preached. It's the way we must do to begin to believe. without being willing to change our ways, it is simply impossible to change the way we think.

OK then putting aside the fact that we cannot see or hear God (even though he supposedly created our eyes and ears, but doesn't allow those eyes and ears to see or hear him, which to me is curious in and off itself).

Putting all that aside for 1 second then, and let's say I go along with your assertion that "There are things here, therefore someone must have crated them" - how do you know or more importantly, how can you be SURE which 'God' created all things? Was it the Jewish God? Was it the Islam God? Was it the Christian God? We still don't know that neither do we?

 

[babe]

OK then putting aside the fact that we cannot see or hear God (even though he supposedly created our eyes and ears, but doesn't allow those eyes and ears to see or hear him, which to me is curious in and off itself).

Putting all that aside for 1 second then, and let's say I go along with your assertion that "There are things here, therefore someone must have crated them" - how do you know or more importantly, how can you be SURE which 'God' created all things? Was it the Jewish God? Was it the Islam God? Was it the Christian God? We still don't know that neither do we?

I would not really be particular about being sure "which" God created the world we know, exactly. I use the term loosely, sorta making "God" undefined, a placeholder noun which of course refers to a concept more than a person. This is me putting my white lab coat on and fiddling with the equipment in the lab, trying to speak scientifically about a hypothesis regarding something we can't observe, measure, see, hear, taste, smell, or feel from our present location and circumstances. "God" could be some primal force of nature, the sum of physical laws/reality... whatever. It is the prevailing principle of all existence, abbreviated, thankfully, to a three-letter word.

The Jews made things more complicated. They used four letters.

They made "God" a covenant-maker who had chosen them as His people, and given them His Law, and placed them under oath(according to Moses) to remember His Law and make it the fundamental most important thing to their character.

Islamists actually did not invent a new God, but borrowed the Jews'. They made a distinction that Ismael rather than Isaac received the covenant. However, they were not timely in their assertions, and failed to recognize them for two thousand years, and only became believers about 700 AD. After being the worst of infidels for two thousand years. I could hardly credit their claims, really. But they do regard themselves practically as slaves to their God.

I think the God of Israel is clearly a Being of higher character. He did not believe his people should be "slaves" to anyone, and insisted that those who serve Him should do so with a whole heart, out of love. I like this idea of God.

The... I think.... earlier religions of Asia, which I believe you are more familiar with... came into existence prior to Abraham. There is a city of India, a submerged city off the coast near the mouth of Indus river, under about 200 feet of water. I don't care if there was a Noah's flood, or a bunch of local floods at various times... and I actually believe humans were trotting about planet earth 200,000 years ago. I don't know much about their religions.

But all religions must follow the trajectory of human thinking and tradition somehow. They must start out with absolute assertions, must achieve a high altitude appearing as bright intellectual lights in the heavens with complex doctrines and magnificent ideals pretty nearly explaining everything and claiming every virtue..... and then within a few thousand years they must sink to the horizon and accept that the human mind fails, and fails spectacularly, in all our bold beliefs.

And then, with a sigh, we must accept that things are.... have been and will be..... whatever they are whether we understand them or not, and we must humble ourselves from our grand professions, and try not to do evil, and try to live in accord with Nature.

But my Aunt Gretta told me "A man's reach should exceed his grasp", and I accept the dictum. I must reach for those transcendent ideals and truths which in fact are beyond actual grasp. It is that hope, that love for truth, that warrants our place in the heart of God.

 

[ONE LOVE]

But my Aunt Gretta told me "A man's reach should exceed his grasp", and I accept the dictum. I must reach for those transcendent ideals and truths which in fact are beyond actual grasp. It is that hope, that love for truth, that warrants our place in the heart of God.

OK, but aren't we again here just 'guessing' at what the 'heart of God' is? I mean if you say the Jewish, the Islam and the Asians are all wrong about their Gods, then we come back again to who is the 1 true God? We just don't have enough evidence to make that call. And again, we surely are just guessing at what he is, what he is like, what he likes, why he created the world and the Universe in the first place, etc (other than from man made scriptures, but then again which one do you choose to believe?)

 

[babe]

OK, but aren't we again here just 'guessing' at what the 'heart of God' is? I mean if you say the Jewish, the Islam and the Asians are all wrong about their Gods, then we come back again to who is the 1 true God? We just don't have enough evidence to make that call. And again, we surely are just guessing at what he is, what he is like, what he likes, why he created the world and the Universe in the first place, etc (other than from man made scriptures, but then again which one do you choose to believe?)

well, I can speak from any of several vantage points.... as a sort of philosopher maybe.... as a sort of scientist, maybe.... but for someone like you who will not believe me or anyone who says "oh, yah.... I saw God the other day.... He came to my house. We had a great feast. I first spied Him walking up the dusty road on the plain of Mamre with his destroying angel at his side. After dinner He told my old hag wife, now 90 years old and as frail as a dried reed in the August wind, that she'd have a son. Later I had some discussion with Him about the Cities of the Plain. They were going to go destroy those cities because the wickedness there was nearly as great as it will be near the end of the world, when all the governments of the world will be using the law to enforce acceptance of abhorrent sexual deviancies. Of course, I knew most of the people in the cities because that is where I sell my beef and milk, and I have no idea how I'll make out without my customers. So I tried to convince Him not to destroy those people, saying if there were some number of good people among them, couldn't the cities be spared. God was really decent about it, and accepted pretty well that if there were any good people left, He'd spare the rest for a while. Well, it turned out on my cousin Lot and his two daughters made it out before the cities burned. Those people tried to force the Destroying Angel to be a perv and let them gang rape him. Can you believe how utterly beyond all hope those people were? I never imagined they would be that bad."

So here was Abraham, unable to have children with his wife, when they desperately wanted them. And there was a whole city of ..... well..... people who didn't care to have any kids even though they could have. Abraham cared about keeping the first commandment given to Adam and Eve....wanted children.... and was counted as righteous, and blessed.

propagation of our kind is a primal instinct, if not a command of God. People who lose touch with their own reality can hardly be saved from their vices. Maybe a little thought could persuade someone to change their ways, and maybe if someone started down that path towards a more harmonious life in accord with Nature, their thinking would follow.

We believe what we love. We do what we want, and justify it inside our heads, and insist on compelling others to think we're good. Our beliefs will follow our conduct unless we determine to change the way we will do.

It might be a stretch for you, but read Genesis I think about chapter 18 or 19, and you will have the story told by Abraham that I related above. You couldn't call him a hater, but he understood and chose to obey the command of God. And, yes, according to the story, he knew God just that way.

 

[ONE LOVE]

well, I can speak from any of several vantage points.... as a sort of philosopher maybe.... as a sort of scientist, maybe.... but for someone like you who will not believe me or anyone who says "oh, yah.... I saw God the other day.... He came to my house. We had a great feast. I first spied Him walking up the dusty road on the plain of Mamre with his destroying angel at his side. After dinner He told my old hag wife, now 90 years old and as frail as a dried reed in the August wind, that she'd have a son. Later I had some discussion with Him about the Cities of the Plain. They were going to go destroy those cities because the wickedness there was nearly as great as it will be near the end of the world, when all the governments of the world will be using the law to enforce acceptance of abhorrent sexual deviancies. Of course, I knew most of the people in the cities because that is where I sell my beef and milk, and I have no idea how I'll make out without my customers. So I tried to convince Him not to destroy those people, saying if there were some number of good people among them, couldn't the cities be spared. God was really decent about it, and accepted pretty well that if there were any good people left, He'd spare the rest for a while. Well, it turned out on my cousin Lot and his two daughters made it out before the cities burned. Those people tried to force the Destroying Angel to be a perv and let them gang rape him. Can you believe how utterly beyond all hope those people were? I never imagined they would be that bad."

So here was Abraham, unable to have children with his wife, when they desperately wanted them. And there was a whole city of ..... well..... people who didn't care to have any kids even though they could have. Abraham cared about keeping the first commandment given to Adam and Eve....wanted children.... and was counted as righteous, and blessed.

propagation of our kind is a primal instinct, if not a command of God. People who lose touch with their own reality can hardly be saved from their vices. Maybe a little thought could persuade someone to change their ways, and maybe if someone started down that path towards a more harmonious life in accord with Nature, their thinking would follow.

We believe what we love. We do what we want, and justify it inside our heads, and insist on compelling others to think we're good. Our beliefs will follow our conduct unless we determine to change the way we will do.

It might be a stretch for you, but read Genesis I think about chapter 18 or 19, and you will have the story told by Abraham that I related above. You couldn't call him a hater, but he understood and chose to obey the command of God. And, yes, according to the story, he knew God just that way.

I'm familiar with the story. I've actually read Genesis, and the Bible for that matter. I'm just speaking from an objective standpoint. How would you defend that, it is at the end of the day, just another story?

 

[babe]

I'm familiar with the story. I've actually read Genesis, and the Bible for that matter. I'm just speaking from an objective standpoint. How would you defend that, it is at the end of the day, just another story?

No, actually.

I'm not really a historian, nor a scientist, at my core.

I'm a believer.

Nobody else believes as I do, nor would I expect it exactly. I believe my own first-hand experience. I know what I know, and no one else can know it as I do for my own reasons. Nor would I ever deny it.

Go read the accounts Red linked above. It's stuff like that.

I was amazed when I was a child knowing that God loved me. I assumed He had greater reason to love others. I could see the reasons why He would love them, I couldn't help but love them too. But I was a bit short on seeing myself as one who deserved the love I thought God has for everyone.

I don't know what to make of it all.

I dreamed as a child of a great flood of filth. I saw it coming, it was a little stream at first. I began trying to tell people to get up on high ground. Then the filth filled.... well, in my eyes.... literally the whole world. My life was a desperate attempt to help pull people out, whoever they were. They were mostly brown people, but that's just the color statistic of humanity. We are mostly brown. count the people of Asia and most of America. But it didn't matter. The filth I saw is the licentious campaign for denying anything is wrong that is wrong, and to call everything that is really good some kind of hateful fault that makes people "deplorable" somehow.

Sure, we can see things as we want, but there is an objective measure. The objective measure is the love, the life-force, that we either pursue as our faith, or destroy out of our minds and hearts because it's not comfortable with our choice of belief or conduct. All the commandments of Christianity direct us to do good to others, to help and assist, to nurture Life according to principles consistent with our great Creator. In the end, our choice will have been our own, and there will be no denying the sort of person(s) we have become.

The only formal exposition of religious faith that really conforms to my vision of things is Mormonism. But when I listen to other Christians I know God is at work there, too.

The most distressing segment of mankind is the Islamists. I can't understand the hate, or the willingness to kill for Allah. I don't understand the "glory" apparently believed by zealots of any religion who can think it's a service to God to wipe disbelievers off the earth. Abraham practically begged God to spare the people of the cities, if He could.

But the story of the destruction of the cities, and the great Flood, suggests that sometimes we are so off that we need to be taken out of our track. Mormons believe when God does that, the people go to a sort of paradise and have some while....well.... until the end of the Millennium at least a thousand years from now....... to reconsider their ways. Missionaries go there. Jesus went there after he was crucified. It is extremely important to reach out to these people.

Well, true religion is not a name tag pinned to your shirt, it's not a church or formal creed. It is the caring that springs out of a heart under the impulse to help others. The words and actions that we undertake because others matter to us.

 

[ONE LOVE]

No, actually.

I'm not really a historian, nor a scientist, at my core.

I'm a believer.

Nobody else believes as I do, nor would I expect it exactly. I believe my own first-hand experience. I know what I know, and no one else can know it as I do for my own reasons. Nor would I ever deny it.

Go read the accounts Red linked above. It's stuff like that.

I was amazed when I was a child knowing that God loved me. I assumed He had greater reason to love others. I could see the reasons why He would love them, I couldn't help but love them too. But I was a bit short on seeing myself as one who deserved the love I thought God has for everyone.

I don't know what to make of it all.

I dreamed as a child of a great flood of filth. I saw it coming, it was a little stream at first. I began trying to tell people to get up on high ground. Then the filth filled.... well, in my eyes.... literally the whole world. My life was a desperate attempt to help pull people out, whoever they were. They were mostly brown people, but that's just the color statistic of humanity. We are mostly brown. count the people of Asia and most of America. But it didn't matter. The filth I saw is the licentious campaign for denying anything is wrong that is wrong, and to call everything that is really good some kind of hateful fault that makes people "deplorable" somehow.

Sure, we can see things as we want, but there is an objective measure. The objective measure is the love, the life-force, that we either pursue as our faith, or destroy out of our minds and hearts because it's not comfortable with our choice of belief or conduct. All the commandments of Christianity direct us to do good to others, to help and assist, to nurture Life according to principles consistent with our great Creator. In the end, our choice will have been our own, and there will be no denying the sort of person(s) we have become.

The only formal exposition of religious faith that really conforms to my vision of things is Mormonism. But when I listen to other Christians I know God is at work there, too.

The most distressing segment of mankind is the Islamists. I can't understand the hate, or the willingness to kill for Allah. I don't understand the "glory" apparently believed by zealots of any religion who can think it's a service to God to wipe disbelievers off the earth. Abraham practically begged God to spare the people of the cities, if He could.

But the story of the destruction of the cities, and the great Flood, suggests that sometimes we are so off that we need to be taken out of our track. Mormons believe when God does that, the people go to a sort of paradise and have some while....well.... until the end of the Millennium at least a thousand years from now....... to reconsider their ways. Missionaries go there. Jesus went there after he was crucified. It is extremely important to reach out to these people.

Well, true religion is not a name tag pinned to your shirt, it's not a church or formal creed. It is the caring that springs out of a heart under the impulse to help others. The words and actions that we undertake because others matter to us.

Had a brief read of that page Red posted as you had suggested, here is 1 account:

"4301. Dr. Simmi M STE 2/18/2017. STE 8229. From India. The same year on 27 July, suddenly in the middle of night my room got filled with something foggy and colorful at the same time. I saw Chinese Goddess Kwanyin. My son who was suffering with very high fever suddenly improved. Even he witnessed Kwanyin and he still remembers this experience quite vividly. Later, I started seeing some vibrant rainbow-colored geometrical shapes. This I came to know only last year in September that all these years I had been perceiving Flower of Life.
Exceptional STE over time with profound spiritual insights."

See, this is what I mean. Am I now to believe that the Chinese Goddess Kwanyin exists?

 

[Red]

Had a brief read of that page Red posted as you had suggested, here is 1 account:

"4301. Dr. Simmi M STE 2/18/2017. STE 8229. From India. The same year on 27 July, suddenly in the middle of night my room got filled with something foggy and colorful at the same time. I saw Chinese Goddess Kwanyin. My son who was suffering with very high fever suddenly improved. Even he witnessed Kwanyin and he still remembers this experience quite vividly. Later, I started seeing some vibrant rainbow-colored geometrical shapes. This I came to know only last year in September that all these years I had been perceiving Flower of Life.
Exceptional STE over time with profound spiritual insights."

See, this is what I mean. Am I now to believe that the Chinese Goddess Kwanyin exists?

I'm sure you realize you need to click on the person's name to access the full account. On that page of the website are a collection of particularly insightful personal experiences. Most are Near Death Experiences, or NDE's. The one you selected is a Spiritually Transformative Experience, or STE. The woman who's experience it is did not come close to death. You could say she simply "fell" into them, sort of a spontaneous mystical experience.

It's true that many NDE's will contain elements that are contingent on the cultural background of the experiencer. The experiencer whose account you selected was Hindu at the time of those experiences. Were you to read her full account, the experience altered her prior beliefs. But that does not really answer your question. A Christian experiencing an NDE might see Christ, and not a being from another faith. This might lead one to conclude that spiritual "truths", if culturally dependent, are relative, and thus there is no such thing as an absolute spiritual truth.

Yet, I believe there is absolute truth, and it's the common elements that are to be found in those accounts that point to that "fact". I say "fact" in quotations because personal experiences like these can't just be transferred to someone else. I can't just say to you "look, I had such an experience, and you can believe me when I say there is a higher realm of existance, there is an after life, there is a purpose to our existance, there is a God, that God is Love, we are here to learn these things, we are here to grow and develop our hearts, there is only Love, all else is illusory", and then you say "I see, I understand, I believe you". But I left that link because I enjoy reading these exceptional experiences, and I know, from personal experiences, that such experiences do happen.

Now, in the era of modern medicine, it is far more common for people who have seemingly "died" to be resuscitated, and we now have more of such accounts. One could use these to bolster a belief that there is more to life then meets the eye, or one could simply blow them all off and attribute them to hallucinations brought on by oxygen deprivation to the brain. I chose the former, but that's me. I can't answer your question. But I believe exposing people to these accounts is at the very least thought provoking. For each of the accounts recorded on that page, clicking on the name will access the full account. I can't say one is more profound then another, one has more "truth" then another. These are all very personal, but I think you will find, despite the fact that cultural relativism may be reflected somewhat, there are universal truths that seem to link each and every one.

Here's a "good" one. The folks who put the website together ask experiencers a series of similar questions, and it's in their answers that common themes emerge, themes that transcend cultural relativism.

http://www.nderf.org/Experiences/1duane_s_nde.html

 

[Red]

Had a brief read of that page Red posted as you had suggested, here is 1 account:

"4301. Dr. Simmi M STE 2/18/2017. STE 8229. From India. The same year on 27 July, suddenly in the middle of night my room got filled with something foggy and colorful at the same time. I saw Chinese Goddess Kwanyin. My son who was suffering with very high fever suddenly improved. Even he witnessed Kwanyin and he still remembers this experience quite vividly. Later, I started seeing some vibrant rainbow-colored geometrical shapes. This I came to know only last year in September that all these years I had been perceiving Flower of Life.
Exceptional STE over time with profound spiritual insights."

See, this is what I mean. Am I now to believe that the Chinese Goddess Kwanyin exists?

When I was in my 20's, I embarked on an examination of the mystical traditions, the so-called inner teachings, the wisdom traditions, the perennial wisdom, called by many names, in other words, of all the world's major faiths. I read the spiritual works by devotees of Hinduism, Buddhism, Sufism, which is the mystical tradition of Islam, and Christianity, which was the faith of my parents, my upbringing. I came to believe that behind any cultural relativism, that all were speaking the same language. I was driven and inspired by the "big" questions of life. Who are we, where do we come from, where are we going? Those kind of questions. At one time, I thought I should enter the monastic life, and engage in spiritual practice, live the life of the contemplative. That did not come to pass, but I encountered many individuals from history, from many cultures, who had embarked on such a life. I thought "who knows the nature of God better then such people?". I think each would actually disagree with that assumption on my part, but, be that as it may, one I particularly liked was the German Christian mystic Meister Eckhart(c. 1260-1328). FWIW, I've here selected a number of his words, having to do with the search for God.

“Theologians may quarrel, but the mystics of the world speak the same language.”

― Meister Eckhart

“The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me; my eye and God's eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing, one love.”
― Meister Eckhart, Sermons of Meister Eckhart

“Every creature is a word of God and is a book about God.”
― Meister Eckhart

“There is no need to look for God here or there. He is no farther away than the door of your own heart.”
― Meister Eckhart

“The less theorizing you do about God, the more receptive you are to His inpouring.”
― Meister Eckhart

“We ought not to have or let ourselves be satisfied with any thought of God. When the thought goes, our God goes with it. No, what we want is a real (subsistent) God who far transcends the thoughts of men and creatures. This God does not disappear unless we turn our back on him of our own accord. He who has God thus, in reality, has gotten God divinely; to him God is apparent in all things. Everything smacks to him of God; everywhere God’s image stares him in the face. God is gleaming in him all the time. In him there is riddance and return; the vision of his God is ever present to his mind.”
― Meister Eckhart, Meister Eckhart, from Whom God Hid Nothing: Sermons, Writings & Sayings

“Spirituality is not to be learned by flight from the world, or by running away from things, or by turning solitary and going apart from the world. Rather, we must learn an inner solitude wherever or with whomsoever we may be. We must learn to penetrate things and find God there.”
― Meister Eckhart

“I am as sure as I live that nothing is so near to me as God. God is nearer to me than I am to myself; my existence depends on the nearness and the presence of God.”
― Meister Eckhart

“Whoever possesses God in their being has Him in a divine manner, and He shines out to them in all things; for them all things taste of God and in all things it is God's image that they see.”
― Meister Eckhart

“There is no better advice on how to find God than to seek him where we left him: do now, when you cannot find God, what you did when last you had him, and then you will find him again.”
― Meister Eckhart, Selected Writings

“Now pay attention to this. God is nameless for no one can either speak of him or know him. Therefore a pagan master says that what we can know or say of the First Cause reflects ourselves more than it does the First Cause, for this transcends all speech and all understanding . . . He is being beyond being: he is a nothingness beyond being. Therefore St. Augustine says: ‘The finest thing that we can say of God is to be silent concerning him from the wisdom of inner riches.’ Be silent therefore, and do not chatter about God, for by chattering about him, you tell lies and commit a sin. If you wish to be perfect and without sin, then do not prattle about God. Also you should not wish to understand anything about God, for God is beyond all understanding. A master says: If I had a God that I could understand, I would not regard him as God. If you understand anything about him, then he is not in it, and by understanding something of him, you fall into ignorance, and by falling into ignorance, you become like an animal since the animal part in creatures is that which is unknowing. If you do not wish to become like an animal therefore, do not pretend that you understand anything of the ineffable God.”
― Meister Eckhart, Selected Writings

“May you find great value in these You may call God love, you may call God goodness. But the best name for God is compassion.”
― Meister Eckhart

 

[ONE LOVE]

OK thanks.

I understand there are a lot of these stories, however unless I experience these experiences myself I do have to take these stories with a grain of salt as they are subjective to the person experiencing them (and writing them, and sharing them on the internet). We don't know how truthful these people are with their stories.

And that brings me to my main point - if God is real and loving - why does he only wait to 'appear' to you only when you're about to die? Why doesn't he appear to ALL OF US right now to help guide our lives, to have a relationship with us, etc? Why only a select few gets to see him? You and Babe will always believe that 'God is real' because you've had 'an experience'. And yet millions upon millions may never know him/her.

I know the default answer would always be 'God works in mysterious ways'. But it's still bemusing to me that millions will die without ever knowing he exists (and according to some religion go straight to Hell because they did not recognize him during their lifetimes).

Why would a loving God (or Jesus) not at least meet all of us once while we're alive? It seems to me to be very contrary to his supposed nature (i.e., all loving).

 

[Red]

OK thanks.

I understand there are a lot of these stories, however unless I experience these experiences myself I do have to take these stories with a grain of salt as they are subjective to the person experiencing them (and writing them, and sharing them on the internet). We don't know how truthful these people are with their stories.

And that brings me to my main point - if God is real and loving - why does he only wait to 'appear' to you only when you're about to die? Why doesn't he appear to ALL OF US right now to help guide our lives, to have a relationship with us, etc? Why only a select few gets to see him? You and Babe will always believe that 'God is real' because you've had 'an experience'. And yet millions upon millions may never know him/her.

I know the default answer would always be 'God works in mysterious ways'. But it's still bemusing to me that millions will die without ever knowing he exists (and according to some religion go straight to Hell because they did not recognize him during their lifetimes).

Why would a loving God (or Jesus) not at least meet all of us once while we're alive? It seems to me to be very contrary to his supposed nature (i.e., all loving).

Wish I could provide an answer to those questions, but I cannot.

 

[babe]

Quick question, what is the difference between murder and killing animals for food? If we think of human as the superior being, then yes there is a difference. But if all living things are equal then aren't we 'murdering' other specifies by killing for food?


The reason I ask is this because I saw this video and it made my heart sink.





Who are we to take these calves away from their mother?

I re-watched a movie I like..... Sarah, Plain and Tall today. She made a pet of a lamb, but the coyotes got it and the buzzards were finishing it. She had a hard time accepting that.

The Bible(OT) instructs the Israelites to make animal sacrifices. After the required ritual, the priests of Levi were allowed to eat a portion of the offering, as they received no land inheritance, and were entitled to a living by their service.

God ordained meat for our use. Mormons have a little scripture that commands us not to kill if we have no need, and that meat is for times of need, and otherwise to be used sparingly. Joseph Smith was influenced, possibly, by a member herbalist who ran a store near his home in Nauvoo. A lot of people had those ideas even back then.

Man is given a stewardship, and a dominion over everything else, and is accountable to God for actions.

In that context, I do ship calves off to market..... when they're about two years old.... steers and some heifers..... I let real cowboys do that for me.

 

[ONE LOVE]

Wish I could provide an answer to those questions, but I cannot.

Thank you Red, I really appreciate your honest response.

 

[ONE LOVE]

@babe, you're drawing the line in the sand based on your faith and what the Bible said instead of being willing to have an open & objective discussion so it's really hard for me to carry on this conversation with you.

I've raised a number of theological/philosophical questions and I'm really interested in what you think outside of your faith, but all the answers are coming from 'Jesus said this, and the OT said that' line, and when you begin from that starting point sometimes that's where the conversation stops.

Thanks for the talk.

 

[babe]

well, OL specifically asked what I really believed, and it's in the Bible.

 

[babe]

new page; new topic

 

[babe]

Amazing stuff here.

Alex Jones live on his radio program began breaking down "the memo"..... the 100 page report of the congressional investigation into "the leaks" or whatever.

I heard it live. Then he literally stopped the show and got some pal to fill in for him. When he came back on, he held it up and said take a screen shot of this.... for several pages. He was given a copy.

And the "news" doesn't think that's news fit to print.

Amazing.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Amazing stuff here.

Alex Jones live on his radio program began breaking down "the memo"..... the 100 page report of the congressional investigation into "the leaks" or whatever.

I heard it live. Then he literally stopped the show and got some pal to fill in for him. When he came back on, he held it up and said take a screen shot of this.... for several pages. He was given a copy.

And the "news" doesn't think that's news fit to print.

Amazing.

You still at it?

This longest thread thing is the biggest ego stroke-job in history. Nice work. Keep it.. up.

 

[ONE LOVE]

well, OL specifically asked what I really believed, and it's in the Bible.

I know you do, no one is questioning that. But if you're gonna talk about love - and I am all for it - then you've got to be careful, understanding and inclusive IMO. People comes from all walks of life with different beliefs. If you're gonna connect with them you don't in the first instance throw the Bible at them, I don't think. You talk and connect with people on a human level and if they're interested in your beliefs then you tell them.

You and I have talked for a long time, and I feel comfortable enough to ask the difficult questions and to explore some of the these harder questions with you. Are you telling me all Christians have a strong faith 'all the time'? To me the journey isn't a blind faith without questions, it's 'wrestling' with doubts and getting to a higher level of understanding and getting to a level of stronger & unshakeable faith something many characters in the Bible had to do, Daniel, Job, Jacob, to name a few.

To me saying, "well the Bible said this, just read it" is well... not sufficient.