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wackypawn said:
Deron Williams

1. Utah Jazz makes a star out of them by drafting them right away putting together a team custom made to highlight their stregths/hide their weaknesses.
2. They have some success (mainly scoring) but are not quite good enough to lead a contender. Still they have a fervent following among Jazz fans that have an inferiority complex yearning for a 'cool' african american 'star' that 'puts the team on the map'.
3. Even though they are supposedly 'playmakers' and 'team leaders', they don't share the ball and isolate their awkward foreign defensive specialist teammate that was a major reason the Jazz were a playoff team to begin with.
4.They get traded to a NY area team and get exposed.
5. Within a few years they play themselves out of the league.
6. They try to stay relevant by getting their head bashed in in a 'celebrity' MMA/boxing match by another C-rated has-been.

Joking aside, I think Mitchell is smart enough to avoid the last step but everything else is one of the more likely career trajectories, esp. if the Jazz front office do the right thing this off season.
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Mitchell is going to be fine outside of Utah. He'll average a ton of points and get bounced in the 1st or 2nd round most years.

Dwill and Hayward's career went south because of injuries, not because there is some magical sauce in Utah that made them better.
 
Nice try to pivot by including Hayward.

Unlike Williams and Mitchell, Hayward can be useful without being the featured scorer and has stayed in the league even after his horrible injury. In contrast, DWill's game went off the cliff as soon as he went to the Nets and before any injuries.

The issue with Mitchell and DWill is not the scoring but teams realizing that 25pts on 30 shots without bringing much else to the table is not something to build a team around esp when the atleticism that made this scoring possible is going away.

How many blown 4th quarter leads do you think Knick fans would tolerate?
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Mitchell is going to be fine outside of Utah. He'll average a ton of points and get bounced in the 1st or 2nd round most years.

Dwill and Hayward's career went south because of injuries, not because there is some magical sauce in Utah that made them better
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wackypawn said:
Nice try to pivot by including Hayward.

Unlike Williams and Mitchell, Hayward can be useful without being the featured scorer and has stayed in the league even after his horrible injury. In contrast, DWill's game went off the cliff as soon as he went to the Nets and before any injuries.

The issue with Mitchell and DWill is not the scoring but teams realizing that 25pts on 30 shots without bringing much else to the table is not something to build a team around esp when the atleticism that made this scoring possible is going away.

How many blown 4th quarter leads do you think Knick fans would tolerate?
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what crack are you on?
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Mitchell is going to be fine outside of Utah. He'll average a ton of points and get bounced in the 1st or 2nd round most years.

Dwill and Hayward's career went south because of injuries, not because there is some magical sauce in Utah that made them better.
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If being fine is making a ton of money, including from endorsements, in a big market, Mitchell surely will be fine.

If being fine is being the best player on a team that competes for the best regular season record or wins any playoff series, I wish Mitchell the best but the odds are against it.

Carmelo had better tools as a scorer and won, what, - one series with the Knicks and OKC over all these years?
 
wackypawn said:
Nice try to pivot by including Hayward.

Unlike Williams and Mitchell, Hayward can be useful without being the featured scorer and has stayed in the league even after his horrible injury. In contrast, DWill's game went off the cliff as soon as he went to the Nets and before any injuries.

The issue with Mitchell and DWill is not the scoring but teams realizing that 25pts on 30 shots without bringing much else to the table is not something to build a team around esp when the atleticism that made this scoring possible is going away.

How many blown 4th quarter leads do you think Knick fans would tolerate?
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I’m failing to see your comparison on DWill not bringing anything outside of scoring on high volume. During his time on Utah, he scored in the high teens on >45% from the field and had double-digit assists.
 
infection said:
I’m failing to see your comparison on DWill not bringing anything outside of scoring on high volume. During his time on Utah, he scored in the high teens on >45% from the field and had double-digit assists.
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I did not say DWill did not bring anything on top of scoring while on the Jazz. Still, DWills defense and leadership were underwhelming even in the best of times.

By DWill's last year with the Jazz, which may be the appropriate base for comparison when talking about Mitchell's future career trajectory, the efficient scoring and double digit assists were mostly gone.
 
wackypawn said:
I did not say DWill did not bring anything on top of scoring while on the Jazz. Still, DWills defense and leadership were underwhelming even in the best of times.
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I'm not certain what you were trying to say. You stated that Mitchell and Hayward could "be useful without being the featured scorer," as opposed to Williams.

wackypawn said:
Unlike Williams and Mitchell, Hayward can be useful without being the featured scorer and has stayed in the league even after his horrible injury.
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Then you lumped Williams and Mitchell together with this comment:

The issue with Mitchell and DWill is not the scoring but teams realizing that 25pts on 30 shots without bringing much else to the table is not something to build a team around esp when the atleticism that made this scoring possible is going away.
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Williams’ efficiency was fine and he was never a 25 ppg guy, but was always a double-digit assist guy.

By DWill's last year with the Jazz, which may be the appropriate base for comparison when talking about Mitchell's future career trajectory, the efficient scoring and double digit assists were mostly gone.
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Deron's last year here he averaged21.3 ppg on 45.8% from the field, 34.5% from three, and shooting 85.3% from the line on 6.7 attempts per game. It was a TS% of 58.7%. And for "mostly gone" double-digit assists, he was averaging 9.7 per game.

But back to your original point about DWill not being useful without being the featured scorer, every year that Boozer was here, sans 2008-2009 when Boozer played 37 games, Deron was not the featured scorer. In the year he was traded, he scored a few points more than Jefferson. So virtually most of the time he was here he was showing that he could be "useful without being the featured scorer."
 
infection said:
I'm not certain what you were trying to say. You stated that Mitchell and Hayward could "be useful without being the featured scorer," as opposed to Williams.



Then you lumped Williams and Mitchell together with this comment:



Williams’ efficiency was fine and he was never a 25 ppg guy, but was always a double-digit assist guy.



Deron's last year here he averaged21.3 ppg on 45.8% from the field, 34.5% from three, and shooting 85.3% from the line on 6.7 attempts per game. It was a TS% of 58.7%. And for "mostly gone" double-digit assists, he was averaging 9.7 per game.

But back to your original point about DWill not being useful without being the featured scorer, every year that Boozer was here, sans 2008-2009 when Boozer played 37 games, Deron was not the featured scorer. In the year he was traded, he scored a few points more than Jefferson. So virtually most of the time he was here he was showing that he could be "useful without being the featured scorer."
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My point is not that DWill or Mitchell were useless while playing for the Jazz.

It is that for both of them the Jazz was the best situation for their career and their game (good pick and roll PF, good shot blocker to clean up defensive mistakes, 3pt shooters for Dwill; good team with great defensive C, multiple secondary playmakers or 3pt shooters, plenty of shots and touches available for Mitchell). Thats why when/if they leave the Jazz their game was/would be affected and they may not be nearly as effective.

If Mitchell is a bit more self conscious and appreciative of that he would be better off regardless of if he stays or not.
 
LoPo said:
None of those guys led his team to a playoff series win in his rookie season. Hell, nobody had done that since Wilt.

None of those guys had a winning record all 5 seasons to start a career.

None of those guys were 3 time all stars through their 5th year.

None of those guys are top 5 all time in playoff scoring per game.

You guys criminally underrate Donovan Mitchell.

Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app
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Not sure if you'd cite playoff numbers if you looked at the teams those two guys played with and compared them to Donovan's. It was self inflicted because they asked for trades from good teams, but it doesn't change the point that you can't put up great playoff numbers on bad teams. And Steve Francis was a 3 time all star in his first five years. (I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your point of view either, btw.)
 
wackypawn said:
My point is not that DWill or Mitchell were useless while playing for the Jazz.

It is that for both of them the Jazz was the best situation for their career and their game (good pick and roll PF, good shot blocker to clean up defensive mistakes, 3pt shooters for Dwill; good team with great defensive C, multiple secondary playmakers or 3pt shooters, plenty of shots and touches available for Mitchell). Thats why when/if they leave the Jazz their game was/would be affected and they may not be nearly as effective.

If Mitchell is a bit more self conscious and appreciative of that he would be better off regardless of if he stays or not.
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You're obviously an AK homer so its hard to take you too serious on your takes and your huge DWill hate.
 
This is not about DWill (everyone has long moved on) but about Mitchell and what may be best for him and the Jazz right now.

A homer for saying AK was 'good shot blocker' and having 'huge DWill hate' for pointing out that his NBA career went south after leaving the Jazz?

You can disagree with me but if these are your reasons I can literally picture you with fingers in your ears shouting 'la-la-la-la'....

..

Ron Mexico said:
You're obviously an AK homer so its hard to take you too serious on your takes and your huge DWill hate.
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I think some people think that he just sucked when he left the Jazz because he left the system, but they forget that Deron dealt with several chronic injuries after he left the Jazz that plagued and shortened the rest of his career. All that said, he was also an all star with New Jersey, went ring chasing to a team that made it to the finals, and has 2 Olympic gold medals.

That would be a successful overall trajectory for anyone in this league, but to be fair about it, Donovan plays pretty differently than Deron did.
 
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