Player alters gender but remains on women's team

[The-Joker]

Joker, I'd say the same to you but you're just a little boy still so I expect nothing more, nothing less.

eh, I just like poking the bear. I honestly don't care. I don't understand it, so it's easy to ridicule. I could prob be convinced the other way, but meh... ignorance is bliss.

 

[colton]

A lot of people still seem to be confusing physical sex with gender identity. Yes my physical sex is still male (that will eventually be changed), but my gender identity is female. For the cisgender members of this board, consider this scenario. You know that you're gender is male/female and your physical sex matches. Yet other people insist on calling you the opposite (calling a male a female and a female a male). How would that make you feel? That is basically how it feels to be transgender.

Katie, let me preface this by saying that I have absolutely no animosity towards you, and have as far as I know never posted anything negative about you, and have never made fun of you. And I understand completely what you feel the difference is between gender identity and physical sex (I said "you feel" because I still have not made up my own mind, even after reading a fair amount about it since you started posting as Katie.)

With that intro, I have a serious question. I'll understand if you'd prefer not to answer, but realize that it is a genuine question, not any sort of attempt by me to disrespect you.

My question: Why is your condition not to be considered a psychological disorder? In other words, why is this basketball player not to be considered female, with a delusion (if that's the right word) that makes her consider herself to be male? Why are you not to be considered male, with a delusion that makes you consider yourself to be female?

My current thinking on this is undoubtedly a bit colored from having recently watched Lars and the Real Girl. Good movie, for any who haven't seen it. In that movie, Lars has a delusion which makes him think a manikin is a real girl, and his girlfriend. Out of politeness, and because they can't convince him otherwise, his family and friends all go along with the delusion. From what I read on wikipedia, and as far as it can be trusted, delusions like this really do exist--and friends of the people suffering from delusions really cannot persuade the individuals that their delusions (although obviously and provably false) are not reality.

So, while I am probably willing to call you female out of politeness, how is your situation different than Lars's? From me, on the outside, it looks uncannily similar: your brain is convinced that something provably false (that you are female), is really true.

Apologies if you find this post offensive, but until you can coherently explain the difference between what you are experiencing, and a delusion of the sort that Lars experienced, I suspect there will be very many people (on this board, and elsewhere) who will not be persuaded to your world view.

 

[Scat]

Katie, let me preface this by saying that I have absolutely no animosity towards you, and have as far as I know never posted anything negative about you, and have never made fun of you. And I understand completely what you feel the difference is between gender identity and physical sex (I said "you feel" because I still have not made up my own mind, even after reading a fair amount about it since you started posting as Katie.)

With that intro, I have a serious question. I'll understand if you'd prefer not to answer, but realize that it is a genuine question, not any sort of attempt by me to disrespect you.

My question: Why is your condition not to be considered a psychological disorder? In other words, why is this basketball player not to be considered female, with a delusion (if that's the right word) that makes her consider herself to be male? Why are you not to be considered male, with a delusion that makes you consider yourself to be female?

My current thinking on this is undoubtedly a bit colored from having recently watched Lars and the Real Girl. Good movie, for any who haven't seen it. In that movie, Lars has a delusion which makes him think a manikin is a real girl, and his girlfriend. Out of politeness, and because they can't convince him otherwise, his family and friends all go along with the delusion. From what I read on wikipedia, and as far as it can be trusted, delusions like this really do exist--and friends of the people suffering from delusions really cannot persuade the individuals that their delusions (although obviously and provably false) are not reality.

So, while I am probably willing to call you female out of politeness, how is your situation different than Lars's? From me, on the outside, it looks uncannily similar: your brain is convinced that something provably false (that you are female), is really true.

Apologies if you find this post offensive, but until you can coherently explain the difference between what you are experiencing, and a delusion of the sort that Lars experienced, I suspect there will be very many people (on this board, and elsewhere) who will not be persuaded to your world view.

Oh, oh! I can answer this question!!

Alright, I'll be good and wait for Katie to answer it first. Not that it matters. I'm already on 'her' ignore list. Katie is adverse to the truth and doesn't like what I have to say.

 

[C l u t c H 385]

Well colton, I spoze it's easier to survive after chopping off your dong than chopping off your brain.

 

[Hopper]

I know a guy who thinks he's Michael Jordan. Funny thang is, he aint never picked up a basketball in his life, and don't even want to. He's picked up a lotta crack on the corner, though.

 

[KatieMCR]

Katie, let me preface this by saying that I have absolutely no animosity towards you, and have as far as I know never posted anything negative about you, and have never made fun of you. And I understand completely what you feel the difference is between gender identity and physical sex (I said "you feel" because I still have not made up my own mind, even after reading a fair amount about it since you started posting as Katie.)

With that intro, I have a serious question. I'll understand if you'd prefer not to answer, but realize that it is a genuine question, not any sort of attempt by me to disrespect you.

My question: Why is your condition not to be considered a psychological disorder? In other words, why is this basketball player not to be considered female, with a delusion (if that's the right word) that makes her consider herself to be male? Why are you not to be considered male, with a delusion that makes you consider yourself to be female?

My current thinking on this is undoubtedly a bit colored from having recently watched Lars and the Real Girl. Good movie, for any who haven't seen it. In that movie, Lars has a delusion which makes him think a manikin is a real girl, and his girlfriend. Out of politeness, and because they can't convince him otherwise, his family and friends all go along with the delusion. From what I read on wikipedia, and as far as it can be trusted, delusions like this really do exist--and friends of the people suffering from delusions really cannot persuade the individuals that their delusions (although obviously and provably false) are not reality.

So, while I am probably willing to call you female out of politeness, how is your situation different than Lars's? From me, on the outside, it looks uncannily similar: your brain is convinced that something provably false (that you are female), is really true.

Apologies if you find this post offensive, but until you can coherently explain the difference between what you are experiencing, and a delusion of the sort that Lars experienced, I suspect there will be very many people (on this board, and elsewhere) who will not be persuaded to your world view.

I'm happy to respond. I may not go into a lot of detail at the moment, but will address it now. I may have more to add later.

The first thing I would point to as an example is those who are born with an intersex condition. I'm sure you are probably aware of what this is. For those that are not, it means someone who is born with both sets of genitalia. Now I believe it is possible for these individuals to identify with both genders. However it is more likely that they will identify with one gender over the other. In a lot of these cases the parents and/or doctors make the wrong choice for the gender the child should be raised as. This leads to the individual changing their gender expression, and sometimes physical sex, to match their identified gender.

Now to relate this more specifically to someone in my situation. I feel that a person's gender identity is basically hard wired into them. It is somehow programmed into the brain, and this is done at some point in development in the womb. In the case of a cisgender person this gender identity matches the physical sex they were born with. However with a transgender person, there is a mismatch. Something goes wrong in the development in the womb to create this mismatch. One thing tells the brain male/female, while something else (likely hormones) tells the body the opposite. I don't have specific links, but there have been studies done to try to prove this theory. As far as I'm aware this research is still taking place.

As to why change the body rather than change the brain? I don't believe it is possible to change someone's internal gender identity. This is a strong belief for me, that I don't need scientific fact for proof. If others want to believe it or not, that is fine. Due to medical advances it is very possible for one to change their physical sex. There are safeguards in place for those who go through this process to try to ensure that they are serious and not making a mistake. For myself I do not feel that I can live a happy life in my current physical state. I would basically rather die than continue living with the body of a male.

Well I ended up going to more detail than I expected. I don't know if that answers your questions, but these are my thoughts on the matter.

 

[C l u t c H 385]

My answer is much easier to prove with science. I win.

 

[colton]

Well I ended up going to more detail than I expected. I don't know if that answers your questions, but these are my thoughts on the matter.

Thanks for the reply. So, if I'm understanding you correctly, your view is that it is a psychological condition, one with presumably underlying physical causes (brain chemistry, or what-not). But since the medical treatment to cure the psychological condition is not available, changing the outward appearance to match the inward view of yourself is the next best thing. Did I get that right?

I've got another question, more of a procedural thing I'm just curious about. Do you have to somehow register with the state that you are undergoing a transgender transformation? The reason I ask, is that I assume it's not legal for a regular male such as myself to use female restrooms--yet apparently it is for you. (Or is it?) So, if a lady in the restroom calls the cops on you, what would you do?

 

[C l u t c H 385]

Thanks for the reply. So, if I'm understanding you correctly, your view is that it is a psychological condition, one with presumably underlying physical causes (brain chemistry, or what-not). But since the medical treatment to cure the psychological condition is not available, changing the outward appearance to match the inward view of yourself is the next best thing. Did I get that right?

I've got another question, more of a procedural thing I'm just curious about. Do you have to somehow register with the state that you are undergoing a transgender transformation? The reason I ask, is that I assume it's not legal for a regular male such as myself to use female restrooms--yet apparently it is for you. (Or is it?) So, if a lady in the restroom calls the cops on you, what would you do?

Doesn't seem right. Any perv could just throw on a wig and stroll into the ladies room.

 

[KatieMCR]

Thanks for the reply. So, if I'm understanding you correctly, your view is that it is a psychological condition, one with presumably underlying physical causes (brain chemistry, or what-not). But since the medical treatment to cure the psychological condition is not available, changing the outward appearance to match the inward view of yourself is the next best thing. Did I get that right?

I've got another question, more of a procedural thing I'm just curious about. Do you have to somehow register with the state that you are undergoing a transgender transformation? The reason I ask, is that I assume it's not legal for a regular male such as myself to use female restrooms--yet apparently it is for you. (Or is it?) So, if a lady in the restroom calls the cops on you, what would you do?

I don't know that we are quite on the same page with your first paragraph. Yes I believe that gender identity is something internal, and hard wired into a person. I do not believe that it is possible to change this hard wired gender identity. I believe the only way to "cure" this, is through a physical transition.

No there is not a registry. I don't know all the legalities of restrooms, and I'm sure it varies by location. I do know that using the women's restroom is the best and safest option for me. I would literally fear for my safety if I entered a men's restroom. Just look at the picture I posted. Do you honestly think I should be using anything other than a women's restroom when presenting like that? Like I said before, I have never had a problem using the women's restrooms. I don't get any odd looks, and nobody says anything. If someone called the cops on me, I would explain the same thing I have just explained to you. I'm not really worried about it though. As I've said, it's never been an issue for me. I have more of an issue going into a men's restroom, which I do when I'm out in my "boy mode". Those are the times I get odd looks. While on the topic, I should mention that I really despise this debate. I have seen it used as a scare tactic far too often by conservative groups who like to spread fear about transgender people. It's really sad that transgender people have to be afraid to enter a public restroom.

 

[7StraightIsGreat]

I've done some light reading on this subject because I'm extremely ignorant in this area, but from what I have read, I understand it like this: Katie was born with a *****, but she says she isn't a man. However, from what I've read, if Katie's chromosomes were studied, they would also show her to be a male. To me, that says that Katie insists she is a female simply because she feels that way yet every other scientific indication shows her being male.

Am I wrong about this? If transgendered people were actually born the wrong gender, wouldn't there be chromosome or DNA markers that would show a discrepancy? It obviously would make alot more sense if Katie was born with a *****, yet her chromosomes showed her to be a female.

 

[Archie Moses]

I've done some light reading on this subject because I'm extremely ignorant in this area, but from what I have read, I understand it like this: Katie was born with a *****, but she says she isn't a man. However, from what I've read, if Katie's chromosomes were studied, they would also show her to be a male. To me, that says that Katie insists she is a female simply because she feels that way yet every other scientific indication shows her being male.

Am I wrong about this? If transgendered people were actually born the wrong gender, wouldn't there be chromosome or DNA markers that would show a discrepancy? It obviously would make alot more sense if Katie was born with a *****, yet her chromosomes showed her to be a female.

I think Katie said she was born with both a ***** and a ******. I think her case is different than most transgendered people.

 

[KatieMCR]

I've done some light reading on this subject because I'm extremely ignorant in this area, but from what I have read, I understand it like this: Katie was born with a *****, but she says she isn't a man. However, from what I've read, if Katie's chromosomes were studied, they would also show her to be a male. To me, that says that Katie insists she is a female simply because she feels that way yet every other scientific indication shows her being male.

Am I wrong about this? If transgendered people were actually born the wrong gender, wouldn't there be chromosome or DNA markers that would show a discrepancy? It obviously would make alot more sense if Katie was born with a *****, yet her chromosomes showed her to be a female.

As far as I understand it chromosomes determine physical sex, not gender. There are also more than 2 possible chromosomal makeups. I actually do plan to have myself tested to find out exactly what my chromosomal makeup is. The results of the test will change nothing in how I identify my gender. I just want the test done out of general curiosity.

 

[KatieMCR]

I think Katie said she was born with both a ***** and a ******. I think her case is different than most transgendered people.

I don't know what you're saying with "a ***** and a ******". If it's what I think, I have actually not said that. Unless I was lied to my entire life, I was born with only one set of genitals.

 

[Archie Moses]

I don't know what you're saying with "a ***** and a ******". If it's what I think, I have actually not said that. Unless I was lied to my entire life, I was born with only one set of genitals.

The first thing I would point to as an example is those who are born with an intersex condition. I'm sure you are probably aware of what this is. For those that are not, it means someone who is born with both sets of genitalia.

I might be confused. Can you enlighten me so I understand this better. What does being born with both sets of genitalia mean?

EDIT: Never mind, I reread your post. You were just talking in general. My bad.

 

[KatieMCR]

I might be confused. Can you enlighten me so I understand this better. What does being born with both sets of genitalia mean?

It appears you correctly understood what I said about intersex people. However I did not actually say that I myself am intersex. I'm sorry if that is how it seemed. I was merely pointing to intersex people as an example for my argument that being transgender is inborn. One more time just so it's clear, I myself am not intersex.

 

[Archie Moses]

It appears you correctly understood what I said about intersex people. However I did not actually say that I myself am intersex. I'm sorry if that is how it seemed. I was merely pointing to intersex people as an example for my argument that being transgender is inborn. One more time just so it's clear, I myself am not intersex.

Yeah, I edited my last post. Sorry about that. I just read it wrong. I do that a lot. haha

 

[C l u t c H 385]

Can we have a volunteer to go into a woman's restroom who doesn't dress like a woman? We need to know the legal consequences if you're not foolin' anyone.

 

[colton]

While on the topic, I should mention that I really despise this debate. I have seen it used as a scare tactic far too often by conservative groups who like to spread fear about transgender people. It's really sad that transgender people have to be afraid to enter a public restroom.

To be clear: I wasn't debating anything. I was just asking for your perspective, and asking about a procedural question I was curious about. (I don't know if your comment was directed at me, but just thought I would clarify in case it was.)

 

[KatieMCR]

To be clear: I wasn't debating anything. I was just asking for your perspective, and asking about a procedural question I was curious about. (I don't know if your comment was directed at me, but just thought I would clarify in case it was.)

No not directed at you. Sorry if it seemed like it was. It was just a general statement on the topic. Not directed at anyone here. Just blowing off some steam from articles I've read online in the past.