gregbroncs
Well-Known Member
Kerr was a key piece on multiple Chicago titles. I love Hornacek as a player. I just don't think he should be hanging from the rafters.
Should #47 hang from the rafters at ESA
- Thread starter Grandpa Jazz
- Start date
gregbroncs
Well-Known Member
Frank Layden's career record as Jazz coach. 277 Wins, 294 Losses. Playoff record 18-23.
I was really young when Layden quit coaching the Jazz. But a losing record as coach does not scream put them in the rafters. I guess with his other contributions and his history with Larry it is understandable why he was put up there. I really hold a grudge against him for being the main reason it took so damn long to get AD up there.
That does not scream great coach to me. He was a decent coach not great. To be in the rafters you should be great.
D
Deleted member 848
Guest
So was Rob Horry. Hornacek was much more than a Rob, or a Kerr though. He's also still in the community to this day; don't have any sort of problem with the Jazz retiring his jersey whatsoever.
Grandpa Jazz
Active Member
Slow down vslice 02. He established the Jazz in Utah ? No, that would have been Sam Battistone ( a restraunt owner, a small chain called Sambo's i believe) who brought them here from the Big Easy and then sold them locally to i believe a group of people, and Larry Miller eventually ended up with the whole team. They established the team here not Frank. Frank was an assistant if i remember right with a couple years as an assistant in Atlanta and not much else. He proceeded to have a Really horrible record with what is remembered as no talent. Actually that first Jazz team had Adrian Dantley, Bernard King and Pete Maravich. Three monumental talents. He was not the head coach that season, Maravich was in his last days, King was accused by some unreliable bimbo (according to media reports) of sexual assault and was dealt. Leaving Dantley who seems to me to be poorly remembered here. He was easily the 2nd greatest scorer in Utah Jazz history. I actually believe he was the best scorer we had ever. Malone had longevity on him is all. If we had a similar talent right now, we would be a solid contender for a championship. All of these things lead to the Jazz making a home in Utah and staying here, not Frank. There is a legend growing around Utah about Frank and it is all Media myth. Nothing personal here against Frank Layden ( he seems a real decent guy), although he didn't like being Coach and didn't particularly like Basketball players. They were considered self centered Prima Donna's even then.
Anyone have a different course of events ? My memory is suspect.
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
The number of names that have been thrown around in this thread as contenders for having their number retired is absurd.
vslice02
Well-Known Member
Frank Layden established the Jazz as a successful NBA franchise in Utah.
-Battistone was from California and the move to SLC was initially viewed as a temporary one until a California-based market opened up and he could gain the approval of fellow owners (who in the late 70's wanted the prime markets to go to expansion teams rather than existing teams). Also Battistone only owned half the team, and after arrivingin Utah the other half was sold to the Bagley family (who were responsible for experimenting with the Jazz playing a portion of their home games in Las Vegas). The Jazz were hemorraging money until 1983 (in '82 they had to trade the draft rights of Dominique Wilkins for $1 million just to stay solvent). 1983 was actually the first year the franchise turned in a profit. Layden was instrumental in 83-84 as both coach (coach of year) and GM (within 4 years he had built a young core by trading Spencer Haywood to the Lakers for Adrian Dantley, then drafting Darrell Griffith, Ricky Green, Mark Eaton (4th-rnd) and Thurl Bailey). Utah advanced to the 2nd-round of the playoffs in 1983-84, then drafted Stockton and Malone in the following two seasons and they were off and running.
Layden was part-coach, part-GM, and part entertainer/comedian. Fans initially came to Jazz games just to watch him coach. He had a sub-.500 overall record because of the first 1 1/2 years when Utah had little talent, but the Jazz eventually went 21 consecutive seasons without a losing record, and Layden was responsible for the first 5 of those. If Layden doesn't establish the Jazz as a suprise playoff team, the circumstances around Larry Miller's first purchase of the team are entirely different and you could argue LHM doesn't go through with it.
It's not like the entire organization and community got it wrong. Frank Layden made an enormous impact on the Utah Jazz and deserved to be honored for it.
Back to Hornacek's #14 hanging from the rafters - Hornacek was the "missing piece" that took Utah to the brink of a championship, and it's quite common to see other teams retire jerseys of beloved role players like Jeff.
Grandpa Jazz
Active Member
vslice02 - You dug out the details and i agree with almost everything you wrote. My aim was to show that Frank was not as he sometimes is portrayed as some kind of savior for the Jazz and the reason they succeeded here. He is/was the proverbial "Face of the Franchise" because the team was bad and he provided comic relief. He was the head coach during their formative years, nothing more.
In some circles, it still is regarded as only temporary ? Some people just can't believe that an NBA franchise can do well in this hot bed of religious fanaticism in the middle of nowhere (Their view, not mine). So, that it was
initially" viewed that way on a national ( media, even our own ) level is no surprise. Without getting all existential about this nothing is forever (ask Sonic fans).
Never said he should not be honored! I don't believe hanging some made up jersey from the rafters is appropriate however. I see that as being for players only. Frank was, and still is to a degree a visible presence in SLC, a reminder of the Jazz past. But he is not the reason they are still miraculously playing games in SLC , not even close. This Does not mean that he did not play a part in that result.
I have a high degree of respect for your posts vslice02 and i don't believe they we are really far apart at all ideologically. I was winging it from memories and impressions from long ago and you dug out details which crystallized my comments. By the way i loved another posters suggestion about putting some Sloan-isms (plaques perhaps) around ESA as a way of honoring Jerry Sloan. This is appropriate and could be applied to Frank also. What do you think ?
In some circles, it still is regarded as only temporary ? Some people just can't believe that an NBA franchise can do well in this hot bed of religious fanaticism in the middle of nowhere (Their view, not mine). So, that it was
initially" viewed that way on a national ( media, even our own ) level is no surprise. Without getting all existential about this nothing is forever (ask Sonic fans).
Never said he should not be honored! I don't believe hanging some made up jersey from the rafters is appropriate however. I see that as being for players only. Frank was, and still is to a degree a visible presence in SLC, a reminder of the Jazz past. But he is not the reason they are still miraculously playing games in SLC , not even close. This Does not mean that he did not play a part in that result.
I have a high degree of respect for your posts vslice02 and i don't believe they we are really far apart at all ideologically. I was winging it from memories and impressions from long ago and you dug out details which crystallized my comments. By the way i loved another posters suggestion about putting some Sloan-isms (plaques perhaps) around ESA as a way of honoring Jerry Sloan. This is appropriate and could be applied to Frank also. What do you think ?
jazzrule
Well-Known Member
I was one that took up for AK for many years, and had long drawn out fights with Salty Dawg and others posters on here about AK. Was AK used correctly by Sloan? Heck NO. Could he have been a perennial All-star player with another team? Heck Yes. But I got off the AK band wagon. Why? He refused to give the Jazz all he had and just went through the motions many games. I remember once when AK had played about 30 minutes and had 0 rebounds. I said a statue holding a basket could have had at least 1 rebound. So his lack of giving us his all and his lack of improving his game from year to year like Milsap has are the reasons that AK does not deserve having his jersey hanging from the rafters. Period end of story.
gregbroncs
Well-Known Member
I like the Horry comparison. It could be argued he was every bit the contributor Horny was. Just for 3 different franchises. He has the same type of impact as Horny for all of the Spurs, Lakers and Chicago. He was a key piece in their championship runs. Why is he not deserving of having his Jersey retired for all 3? At least in a similar way as Hornacek does for Utah. The answer is Horny was beloved here.
It is not on court actions for the Jazz that gets their # retired. This as much as anything will keep AK's jersey off the rafters.