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This ain't the late 90s, brough. Electric cars are the way to go, for many these days.

Well there's always a downside. You'd figure that if they are so new and use such a specialized battery that finding a replacement is going to be really hard and thus expensive. I'm not sure if it was as bad as I was lead to believe. Haven't really done any official research, just gathering information through random conversations I have with people.
 
Just go test-drive one. They are fun to drive, surprisingly so. Not as fun as my 'vette, but really not far off, for different reasons. And you can damn near park it in a mailbox.
 
Man-caused global warming is a real phenomenon, sorry to burst bubbles, but it's just physics. Here's a website to help us understand why this occurs: https://www.pa.msu.edu/sciencet/ask_st/083194.html I urge anyone that has argued against human caused global warming to read this.

Second, someone said that man couldn't possibly have an effect on the earth's climate, but this is untrue. Before the industrial revolution (~1800 AD) global atmospheric CO2 was about 280 parts per million, now it is around 390. We have added about 110 parts per million of CO2 gas to the atmosphere-- that's a 40% increase.

Finally, this cold spell that has passed through is a natural phenomenon called the Pacific North American Oscillation, or the PNA for short. This is a climate teleconnection pattern that occurs on decadal, interannual, and intra-annual time scales and is closely related to el nino events, it has nothing to do with man-caused global warming.

This year, we happen to be in a positive phase.
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Just curious, what was the CO2 levels during the cretaceous?
 
Really high, like 2,000 ppm.

So CO2 levels vary a lot, with or without human involvement, right? So how does the fact that it is up right now prove anything? Doesn't ocean temp have more to do with atmospheric CO2 levels than anything else (warm water holds less CO2 than cold water)?

I hate to even get into this because I'm no expert (or even all that well informed), but just because the experts all tell me to believe them doesn't mean I will do it automatically, which I know really gets under the skin of intellectuals who want to be able to tell the stupid masses what to think and how to act.
 
Really high, like 2,000 ppm.

Gee, so what drove up the levels so much? T-rex driving too many SUVs?

This is what makes this global warming hoax... I mean, business... I mean science (since obviously only evil oil companies are in the profit business. Green special interest groups have nothing to gain other than a warm fuzzy feeling in their hearts).

This is what complicates things.

The human race has been around for a tiny tiny TINY fraction of this planet's history. For just a tiny fraction of our own history, have we kept record of the climate. And for an even smaller fraction have we kept accurate and comprehensive records. In fact, I imagine in the next 50 years we'll look back at this period and just laugh at how prehistoric and inaccurate our models were. Hell, the weatherman STILL can't predict the weather a few days into the future let alone declaring this doomsday apocalypse unless we all switch over to hydroelectric energy right now.

We have no clue how hot or cold it has been before. We have no idea what will happen if it does heat or cool. We have no idea how much we're effecting the climate. It's just a strong special interest group that is trying to make us scared so we pony up more money for them. Greenies and oil companies are BUSINESSES.

And until the greenies develop useful and cost effective solutions, we'll continue to DRILL BABY DRILL and pollute. It's our livelihood. I have no doubt that in the future we'll change over to different sources of energy. But it will come naturally. We didn't need the government or Al Gore to tell people to stop using horses and carriages in favor of trains and automobiles. Likewise, we'll use other technologies once they prove more useful and cost effective. It will come naturally, not out of a state of panic.
 
I don't question that the earth is warming somewhat. But the doomsday predictions are what get me. In the cretaceous average temperatures were somewhere around 4-7 deg celsius warmer than now (remember the doomsayers are predicting global catastrophe with a 2 degree change), and life was incredibly abundant. Plants and animals all reached enormous sizes. There were a much larger variety of plants and animals than we know of today. Ocean temperatures, another doomsday predictor, were anywhere from 17 to as much as 30 deg cels warmer than today, yet there were several times the species evident in the oceans that there are today. I just think that the one part of this that cannot be supported are the doomsday predictions.

You also have to wonder, at the current levels, say 400 ppm, that is 0.04%. So far less than one percent of earths atmosphere is CO2. In the cretaceous it was 0.2%, yet the temperature differential was 4 degrees. There was no polar ice cap for much of that epoch. Yet the argument is that if we melt the polar icecap practically all dry earth will then be covered in water. Why wasn't it all covered during the cretaceous?

I question the true anthropomorphic influence and the predicted outcomes.

Not saying it isn't happening, just not on board with the why's and results. Also the fact that millions of dollars and entire economies are potentially at stake with sanction and restrictions (ala the Kyoto Protocol, which would substantially over-penalize developed countries who participate but not affect many of the larger CO2 producers who did not participate, namely China and India), not to mention huge government grants associated with the study of anthropomorphic global warming (tacking on the "anthropomorphic" label nearly quadrupled grant money from what was previously spent on climate study and global warming) makes this a bigger issue with innumerable stakeholders and potential "winners" and "losers".

And the crux of it is, all the outcomes are speculation. Yet they want us to commit huge resources to combating a disputed issue with questionable outcomes. And even at that unless we literally strangle off all carbon emissions we will do little to affect the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere now. What would it do to the world economies if we shut off all fossil-fuel usage right now? And 3rd world countries would be the hardest hit as they do not have the resources to find some alternative, as we might be able to if forced that route.

By all means we need to take care of the environment. We need to find alternate forms of energy that are sustainable and practical, and soon. But I am not buying into the panic-inducing arguments coming from researchers whose livelihood depends on the next grant for their research, which will only come in those large amounts fueled by that panic.

And don't get me started on "carbon footprint". There is the biggest red herring of all time.
 
Gee, so what drove up the levels so much? T-rex driving too many SUVs?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deccan_Traps

This is what makes this global warming hoax... I mean, business... I mean science (since obviously only evil oil companies are in the profit business. Green special interest groups have nothing to gain other than a warm fuzzy feeling in their hearts).

Opinion

This is what complicates things.

Opinion

The human race has been around for a tiny tiny TINY fraction of this planet's history. For just a tiny fraction of our own history, have we kept record of the climate. And for an even smaller fraction have we kept accurate and comprehensive records. In fact, I imagine in the next 50 years we'll look back at this period and just laugh at how prehistoric and inaccurate our models were. Hell, the weatherman STILL can't predict the weather a few days into the future let alone declaring this doomsday apocalypse unless we all switch over to hydroelectric energy right now.

We can reconstruct climates that occurred up to 200 million years earlier to within 0.25 degrees Celsius.

We have no clue how hot or cold it has been before.

Not true.

We have no idea what will happen if it does heat or cool. We have no idea how much we're effecting the climate.

Partially true.

It's just a strong special interest group that is trying to make us scared so we pony up more money for them. Greenies and oil companies are BUSINESSES.

Yes and No.

And until the greenies develop useful and cost effective solutions, we'll continue to DRILL BABY DRILL and pollute. It's our livelihood.

Agreed

I have no doubt that in the future we'll change over to different sources of energy.

Probably

But it will come naturally. We didn't need the government or Al Gore to tell people to stop using horses and carriages in favor of trains and automobiles.

They're not saying that.

Likewise, we'll use other technologies once they prove more useful and cost effective. It will come naturally, not out of a state of panic.

I agree.
 
I don't question that the earth is warming somewhat. But the doomsday predictions are what get me. In the cretaceous average temperatures were somewhere around 4-7 deg celsius warmer than now (remember the doomsayers are predicting global catastrophe with a 2 degree change), and life was incredibly abundant. Plants and animals all reached enormous sizes. There were a much larger variety of plants and animals than we know of today. Ocean temperatures, another doomsday predictor, were anywhere from 17 to as much as 30 deg cels warmer than today, yet there were several times the species evident in the oceans that there are today. I just think that the one part of this that cannot be supported are the doomsday predictions.

You also have to wonder, at the current levels, say 400 ppm, that is 0.04%. So far less than one percent of earths atmosphere is CO2. In the cretaceous it was 0.2%, yet the temperature differential was 4 degrees. There was no polar ice cap for much of that epoch. Yet the argument is that if we melt the polar icecap practically all dry earth will then be covered in water. Why wasn't it all covered during the cretaceous?

I question the true anthropomorphic influence and the predicted outcomes.

Not saying it isn't happening, just not on board with the why's and results. Also the fact that millions of dollars and entire economies are potentially at stake with sanction and restrictions (ala the Kyoto Protocol, which would substantially over-penalize developed countries who participate but not affect many of the larger CO2 producers who did not participate, namely China and India), not to mention huge government grants associated with the study of anthropomorphic global warming (tacking on the "anthropomorphic" label nearly quadrupled grant money from what was previously spent on climate study and global warming) makes this a bigger issue with innumerable stakeholders and potential "winners" and "losers".

And the crux of it is, all the outcomes are speculation. Yet they want us to commit huge resources to combating a disputed issue with questionable outcomes. And even at that unless we literally strangle off all carbon emissions we will do little to affect the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere now. What would it do to the world economies if we shut off all fossil-fuel usage right now? And 3rd world countries would be the hardest hit as they do not have the resources to find some alternative, as we might be able to if forced that route.

By all means we need to take care of the environment. We need to find alternate forms of energy that are sustainable and practical, and soon. But I am not buying into the panic-inducing arguments coming from researchers whose livelihood depends on the next grant for their research, which will only come in those large amounts fueled by that panic.

And don't get me started on "carbon footprint". There is the biggest red herring of all time.

I'm with you. Oil is an absolute necessity, it is our primary source of carbon and immensely important to the world economy. It would be foolish (and impossible) to suddenly stop using oil.

I'm just saying the world is warming, it's a fact.

What will happen? No one knows for certain, but surely we should act wisely when implementing future policies both environmentally and economically. I don't think think they are conflicting ideals.
 
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