Still A Harsh Reality... Players not wanting to play in Utah

[JimLes]

Donovan fought for equality but was shut down... But that's on Utah, his efforts were observed by many around the league thus the perception remains ...

I don't get what he thought was going to happen.

Utah is a pretty conservative, patriarchal, racist place. I don't think anyone is going to argue that. There's a long way to go.

It's just that Mitchell comes off as thinking that because he made an All-Star game and bought some kid a new smart phone, he was going to end racism in Utah. There are activists and organizations in Utah who have all been working for decades to make it a less racist place, and while there has been progress, it's been slow and hard-won. The problem apparently, is that they all just needed some rich kid from Connecticut to come and end racism in Utah like Fonzie.

 

[416Klawzz]

I don't get what he thought was going to happen.

Utah is a pretty conservative, patriarchal, racist place. I don't think anyone is going to argue that. There's a long way to go.

It's just that Mitchell comes off as thinking that because he made an All-Star game and bought some kid a new smart phone, he was going to end racism in Utah. There are activists and organizations in Utah who have all been working for decades to make it a less racist place, and while there has been progress, it's been slow and hard-won. The problem apparently, is that they all just needed some rich kid from Connecticut to come and end racism in Utah like Fonzie.

I think your take on Mitchell is wrong, he tried it didn't work it may never. Take this as a non Spida ambassador. I'm Canadian and from Toronto. My parents are from South America Guyana to be exact. When I played college ball here .when I came across anyone who found out I was a Jazz fan they were always shocked. Why Utah? Are you a Mormon? Are you from Utah ? Is your wife a Mormon? All cringed at the thought of me being a coloured fan of the Jazz. It's getting better though but everyone I've come across hated the Jazz or rooted against them. I always wondered why ?

 

[The Jazz Wonderbra]

Toronto is the complete opposite it's literally one of the melting pots of the World

Correct. Alberta and Torono are very different places.

I would think Toronto would be a very comfortable destination for anyone who is sensitive to racial injustices.

 

[Sean]

Then you're wrong, Sean. The Millers sold the Jazz because they lost a ******** of money during the pandemic and had to right the ship.

I mean, the Millers sold the Jazz in the fall of 2020. I doubt it was a deal that happened quickly (something like that doesn't) - it's hard for me to believe in a few months that the pandemic raged, that they became so destitute they needed to sell the Jazz. There was definitely more at play and I guarantee they were looking to get out of the NBA game long before we even knew what COVID was.

 

[Sean]

3 of the last 5 NBA champions are franchises that did not rely on stars from free agency at all to win their title.

Nikola Jokić played with the Nuggets for eight seasons before they won their NBA title. Utah got five seasons out of Mitchell before they unloaded him.

Steph Curry was in his sixth season when he won his first title with the Warriors - or one more than Mitchell played in Utah.

Giannis was in his eighth season with the Bucks when he won his title.

Since the Stockton and Malone era ended, here's the longevity with the Jazz of every player they've drafted who turned into NBA All Stars:

Deron Williams (six seasons)
Gordon Hayward (seven)
Rudy Gobert (nine)
Donovan Mitchell (five)

None of those players have had the longevity with Utah as the three title winners I've listed (over their entire career).

There's ample enough evidence to suggest Utah has a very small window to win with their drafted NBA talent. Every player who they drafted that went on to be an All Star since the Stockton-Malone era came to an end, peaced out in some capacity after less than ten seasons.

Gobert is the only one who stands out and let's be honest, Utah was never winning a title with just Gobert.

It's not just about drafting the talent. It's about retaining that talent so eventually you get that NBA run. Utah hasn't been able to do that since the S&M days.

 

[Mongoose]

I think the constant chatter about player not wanting to be here is part of the problem. Utah has this stigma, but for a 19 year old I cant imagine that they would feel much different about going to Milwaukee or Oklahoma vs Utah.

 

[MT Steve]

Nikola Jokić played with the Nuggets for eight seasons before they won their NBA title. Utah got five seasons out of Mitchell before they unloaded him.

Steph Curry was in his sixth season when he won his first title with the Warriors - or one more than Mitchell played in Utah.

Giannis was in his eighth season with the Bucks when he won his title.

Since the Stockton and Malone era ended, here's the longevity with the Jazz of every player they've drafted who turned into NBA All Stars:

Deron Williams (six seasons)
Gordon Hayward (seven)
Rudy Gobert (nine)
Donovan Mitchell (five)

None of those players have had the longevity with Utah as the three title winners I've listed (over their entire career).

Gobert would have. Lauri by all accounts loves it here and wants to stay long-term.

I genuinely believe if we had drafted Jokic or Giannis, they would have stayed here if our team was strong.

 

[Thejazzkickazz]

It's not just about drafting the talent. It's about retaining that talent so eventually you get that NBA run. Utah hasn't been able to do that since the S&M days.

And since that time the Utah religislature has worked tirelessly to make sure S&M is legally unacceptable in the state.

 

[Just Ted]

As long as they don't make BDSM legally unacceptable I'm sticking around. I mean.... Never mind.

 

[idiot]

It's just that Mitchell comes off as thinking that because he made an All-Star game and bought some kid a new smart phone, he was going to end racism in Utah. There are activists and organizations in Utah who have all been working for decades to make it a less racist place, and while there has been progress, it's been slow and hard-won. The problem apparently, is that they all just needed some rich kid from Connecticut to come and end racism in Utah like Fonzie.

I think this isn't quite how things worked (though I may be wrong about timing, please correct me if I'm wrong).

It's not so much that Donovan came to Utah thinking he would fix the place, but more that racism came to be a national issue while he was in Utah (George Floyd, and Breonna Taylor with the local connection for him, especially). In that situation, some people are going to say to themselves that "I've got so say something", which he did and for which I wholeheartedly applaud him.

It was then, if I'm not mistaken, that the local negative feedback started and he found himself drawn into more and more local elements of it (Izzy Tichenor, state legislature, etc.), and the local negative feedback grew. I'm 1000% on Donovan's side of these issues, but tend to think that it's more correct to frame things as the issues coming to him (and him responding with integrity) rather than him searching out to fix Utah initially.

 

[sip]

Donovan fought for equality but was shut down... But that's on Utah, his efforts were observed by many around the league thus the perception remains ...

What exactly was the equality that Donovan was fighting for?

 

[Engorged On Unborn Gore]

I don't get what he thought was going to happen.

Fighting oppression, even when you are young and idealistic, isn't something that you only do when you think you can win.

Mitchell paid a price for his activism. And then the Jazz paid a price for Utah's cultural ineptitude. Neither of those two occurrences indicate that he was wrong to speak up.

 

[JazzJunkie]

Let me ask you a question. Have you ever lived in Utah and if so where did you live?

I grew up there also but moved a few years back. Couldn't stand the vibe.

 

[JazzJunkie]

And honestly, there is a lot to NOT like about New York. Traffic is terrible. Weather is not great. The media is cutthroat. The organization sucks. But to a 19 year old, it has appeal.

New Orleans is a hole. OKC is a small version of Dallas and Dallas is a big version of San Antonio. Minnesota is frigid. Charlotte sucks historically. LA weather is fantastic, but that traffic!

The biggest beef on Utah is that 19 year olds don't know it's a gem compared to many other NBA destinations. Vets often STAY in Utah long after their careers. I think the guys in trucks with huge Trump flags and AK-47 stickers give us a bad wrap but that's all over the west folks. It's probably more prevalent in rural Illinois and Indiana from my travels. But we seem to be louder. It's a bummer because it doesn't speak for most of the population.

A nightlife would go a LONG way.

 

[Sean]

Gobert would have. Lauri by all accounts loves it here and wants to stay long-term.

I genuinely believe if we had drafted Jokic or Giannis, they would have stayed here if our team was strong.

Maybe ... Jokic because European players seem more receptive to Utah (I guess Giannis fits that too). The problem is that they're pretty rare - at least at that level. As I pointed out, Gobert wasn't going to win Utah a title like those two might.

 

[Sean]

I think the constant chatter about player not wanting to be here is part of the problem. Utah has this stigma, but for a 19 year old I cant imagine that they would feel much different about going to Milwaukee or Oklahoma vs Utah.

I think they face a similar stigma as SLC to be honest.

But the big difference is that Oklahoma City is 14% black and Milwaukee is almost 40% Black.

Salt Lake? 3%.

I do think that plays a role. We have the smallest Black population of any NBA city. Even Portland (6%) and Phoenix (7%) have a larger Black population - while also having a larger urban area overall.

And that's just Salt Lake (200,000 people). In Salt Lake County (over one-million), it's actually a smidge worse overall (2%).

 

[MT Steve]

Maybe ... Jokic because European players seem more receptive to Utah (I guess Giannis fits that too). The problem is that they're pretty rare - at least at that level. As I pointed out, Gobert wasn't going to win Utah a title like those two might.

They're becoming a lot less rare nowadays. More than half of last year's All-stars were international.

 

[JimLes]

Fighting oppression, even when you are young and idealistic, isn't something that you only do when you think you can win.

Mitchell paid a price for his activism. And then the Jazz paid a price for Utah's cultural ineptitude. Neither of those two occurrences indicate that he was wrong to speak up.

This is exactly what I was talking about. He was right to speak up, and I'm glad he did. I just feel like he didn't expect the consequences, which seems incredibly naive.

I get that he grew up sheltered and that celebrity also shields you from all kinds of stuff, but come on. It's possible for people to worship a black athlete and still be prejudiced against black people. It feels like he expected his words to carry some kind of gravitas they obviously don't.

Civic activism is hard, thankless work. You also may not see the fruits of it within your lifetime. It's quite different in that regard than promoting shoes or shooting hoops.

 

[JimLes]

I do think that plays a role. We have the smallest Black population of any NBA city. Even Portland (6%) and Phoenix (7%) have a larger Black population - while also having a larger urban area overall.

I never understood this line of thinking. Part of it is that my family is used to being a small minority and we're fine with it. My gentile father grew up in a Catholic family in what had been a predominantly Muslim area for 500 years. My maternal ancestors have spent the last 2000 years in diaspora. I actually think I like it. I don't know how I'd handle living in Israel, for example.

But the other part of that is that I don't understand what impact this has on an average NBA player. Detroit is 80% black and I do not for a second believe that any Pistons players live in predominantly black parts of Detroit or Detroit Metro. Based on where the Jazz players tend to live around SLC, I assume they live in the whitest places imaginable. I also find it difficult to believe that the higher the black population of the city is, the lower the racism you face. A white police officer doesn't care if the city is 5% black or 50% black when pulling you over for driving a "suspiciously" expensive car. What would be the benefit of living in a city with a larger black population for someone who's a multi-millionaire from the start?

 

[HermanG]

Nikola Jokić played with the Nuggets for eight seasons before they won their NBA title. Utah got five seasons out of Mitchell before they unloaded him.

Steph Curry was in his sixth season when he won his first title with the Warriors - or one more than Mitchell played in Utah.

Giannis was in his eighth season with the Bucks when he won his title.

Since the Stockton and Malone era ended, here's the longevity with the Jazz of every player they've drafted who turned into NBA All Stars:

Deron Williams (six seasons)
Gordon Hayward (seven)
Rudy Gobert (nine)
Donovan Mitchell (five)

None of those players have had the longevity with Utah as the three title winners I've listed (over their entire career).

There's ample enough evidence to suggest Utah has a very small window to win with their drafted NBA talent. Every player who they drafted that went on to be an All Star since the Stockton-Malone era came to an end, peaced out in some capacity after less than ten seasons.

Gobert is the only one who stands out and let's be honest, Utah was never winning a title with just Gobert.

It's not just about drafting the talent. It's about retaining that talent so eventually you get that NBA run. Utah hasn't been able to do that since the S&M days.

Didnt all those All-stars sign an extension here? Also, didnt we trade 3 of those 4 for pretty good hauls? How do those things correlate with us "not being able to retain talent"?

Implicating that no one wants to play/stay here is weird considering we are one of the top franchizes in all-time win%. Sure there are no banners in the rafters, but not because we havent been able to build good teams... even post S&M era.