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stitches said:
Do you think this is his real shooting ability or do you think those 2 games might just be too small of a sample?

Also... what's your take on his game as a whole, small sample shooting splits aside? How's his defense? How does his athleticism and length project to the league? etc...
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I saw stats from the french league that also showed a poor shooter. I think this is his real shooting ability currently.
 
stitches said:
. I feel like in SL specifically, the eye test is probably more reliable predictor of talent.
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You mention the eye test. I saw eliza talking about watching him in person and Bilal being almost invisible. Like if you didn't know he was a top 10 pick you would think he was a scrub. No box score involved. No highlights. Just an eye test of watching him play a game of basketball with mostly non nba players.
 
fishonjazz said:
You mention the eye test. I saw eliza talking about watching him in person and Bilal being almost invisible. Like if you didn't know he was a top 10 pick you would think he was a scrub. No box score involved. No highlights. Just an eye test of watching him play a game of basketball with mostly non nba players.
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Elizah is also the person who threw a literal temper tantrum when he was told that Bilal would be a top 10 pick and Utah would take him if he fell to 9. (which has since been proven in interviews by Ryan Smith)

He actively lets bias get in the way of how he scouts players. If you watched these Bilal games and have come away unimpressed you're delusional.
 
fishonjazz said:
You mention the eye test. I saw eliza talking about watching him in person and Bilal being almost invisible. Like if you didn't know he was a top 10 pick you would think he was a scrub. No box score involved. No highlights. Just an eye test of watching him play a game of basketball with mostly non nba players.
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Along with HH who was also there with me and said the same exact thing. HH is a really smart guy and I don’t think he’d be disingenuous about a guy he didn’t have a strong opinion on one way or the other before the draft.
 
I also don’t really care about what guys do when we don’t draft them. I watched Black up close as well and one thing that concerned me a little was his turnovers. It seemed like he was getting stripped a little too easy on drives.
 
fishonjazz said:
I saw stats from the french league that also showed a poor shooter. I think this is his real shooting ability currently.
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10% from 3 is not his real shooting ability. He shot 34% from 3 last year in France on 119 attempts. He shot 21% the previous year on 86 attempts. That's super small samples. His FT% was 71% on 170 attempts.... IMO it points to... not a great shooter... but it also suggests that there might be room for improvement and real reachable potential of at least an average shooter. His shot is not the picture of beauty or anything but I also don't see anything particularly wrong with it mechanically. If I had to bet... I wouldn't bet he goes on to be average shooter, but it's possible. IMO the most likely scenario is he ends up being around 30-33% 3p shooter in the NBA.
 
fishonjazz said:
Just a pot calling a kettle black. Classic Cy
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Where? Please show me where I do that for draft prospects?

You arent ever involved in draft talks bud, dont come in here and speak on **** you dont know about.

I was down on George (had him #23) and since said I'm wrong. I'm completely capable of saying I'm wrong about a draft prospect and dont really care about doing so.
 
stitches said:
I really REALLY don't like limiting samples, especially when the sample we have is already too small. If I want to judge his ability to shoot I'd probably be including everything I can get my hands on. And BTW, for the record I don't think he's a good shooter right now. He's a bit like... Dante coming into the league... maybe even more questionable shooter. And while shooting is indeed very important in the modern day NBA, there are other ways for prospects to make themselves useful early. That's why I added the additional questions to my response above ...

... what's your take on his game as a whole, small sample shooting splits aside? How's his defense? How does his athleticism and length project to the league? etc...
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Gonna hijack this post and post my own thoughts because these are good questions.

1) I don't think he's a great shooter, the numbers coming into the league were very similar to Cam Whitmore's, but you could tell he was taking "easier" shots....the sample size and %'s were very similar though. I feel like there was some hype generated about him predraft because his 3FG% was 40%+ at the senior level but I never subscribed to that line of thinking. Most of the top 10 were questionable shooters, however, so it's not like it was deal breaker to me. I will say his form and smoothness on his pullup jumpers looks really nice, but it doesn't matter if they don't go in. He looks like he knows what he's doing in PnR. Problem is he's playing Johnny Davis and Johnny Davis' clone so he doesn't get a lot of opportunities. I still think he's more on a Jaden McDaniels/Herb Jones type trajectory though being realistic.

2) Defensively I think he looks great. The highlight reel blocks are great, but you can just tell he moves extremely well. His length and athleticism will be A tier in the NBA. I think this is something that separates him from Dante. Dante could probably beat Bilal in a 100 meter sprint, but Bilal is much longer and much more explosive+elusive. He has dunk contest athleticism, but also very slick footwork that allows him to change directions with his long strides. I feel like for Dante to be considered a physical specimen, you had to consider him a PG. Compared to other wings....he was just ok. But Bilal is going to be one of the best athletes in the league period. I will say, there have been some moments where he's been out muscled (offense and defense) and he's definitely lacking there. But how much are you going to judge an 18 year old who just grew 8 inches for being skinny?

Ultimately, I don't think he's done much to change opinions one way or another. If you thought he was too raw, yeah he looks very raw on offense. If you were in love with his physical attributes, they are very much on display. If you get away from our little hivemind here it seems as though this is holding true. Whoever like him is loving him, whoever did not like him is still skeptical. Everyone is biased in one direction, so naturally they will latch onto what they want to see. Generally I think it's a fools errand to judge to much off of summer league to begin with....but with the small sample sizes it's probably best to trust your eyes over the box scores. Jarace Walker, for example, also has a miserable shooting percentage right now. But just watching him....it'd be hard to convince someone he's not going to be really good....or at least that he has looked really impressive.

I get why people keep using Dante as the warning sign....but you know me. I would absolutely sign up for Dante again if he was healthy + better athlete + better frame.
 
fishonjazz said:
You mention the eye test. I saw eliza talking about watching him in person and Bilal being almost invisible. Like if you didn't know he was a top 10 pick you would think he was a scrub. No box score involved. No highlights. Just an eye test of watching him play a game of basketball with mostly non nba players.
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That to me is more valuable input from Elizah than the shooting %s based on 15-20 shots. Him floating a bit and not impacting the game offensively more is a legit worry and I don't think this criticism should be dismissed.
 
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stitches said:
That to me is more valuable imput from Eliza than the shooting %s based on 15-20 shots. Him floating a bit and not impacting the game offensively more is a legit worry and I don't think this criticism should be dismissed.
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Most of his points last game came in a 43 second spurt. You take that away and it’s almost 27 minutes of no scoring. That is not good. Now on the flip side the flashes he showed in that 43 seconds was special.
 
stitches said:
That to me is more valuable input from Eliza than the shooting %s based on 15-20 shots. Him floating a bit and not impacting the game offensively more is a legit worry and I don't think this criticism should be dismissed.
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Me and HH were talking about this earlier. Bilal will start to go off, making multiple plays in a one minutes span. Then he won't touch the ball for the next 10+ minutes. I don't know what to make of it. It's definitely on him to some extent, but it's also hard to put blame on guys when their teammates are SL chucking. When Luka, for example, is freezing Keyonte out of the game it's not something to hold against Keyonte. Playing with two versions of Johnny Davis isn't helping him but he isn't helping himself either.
 
KqWIN said:
Me and HH were talking about this earlier. Bilal will start to go off, making multiple plays in a one minutes span. Then he won't touch the ball for the next 10+ minutes. I don't know what to make of it. It's definitely on him to some extent, but it's also hard to put blame on guys when their teammates are SL chucking. When Luka, for example, is freezing Keyonte out of the game it's not something to hold against Keyonte. Playing with two versions of Johnny Davis isn't helping him but he isn't helping himself either.
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Yeah, that’s what I said above. In the stretches when he goes off for multiple plays in a row he looks special. Then he disappears for a long time after.
 
KqWIN said:
Me and HH were talking about this earlier. Bilal will start to go off, making multiple plays in a one minutes span. Then he won't touch the ball for the next 10+ minutes. I don't know what to make of it. It's definitely on him to some extent, but it's also hard to put blame on guys when their teammates are SL chucking. When Luka, for example, is freezing Keyonte out of the game it's not something to hold against Keyonte. Playing with two versions of Johnny Davis isn't helping him but he isn't helping himself either.
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Yeah... the reason I think it should be taken serious as a worry for him is that it's not just in SL that this happened. It was happening in his team in France too. He was not relied to create offense or even finish offensive possessions. And he looked similar to what you and Elizah are describing... some flashes of great play... but then he would just float...

BTW, don't know if you watched the FIBA U19 games last week... but Risacher is WORSE than Bilal in that respect. He floats and disappears even among players same age as him. It was shocking watching him and reading mock drafts having him top 3 next year.
 
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