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The Jazz Now have a top 10 Offense AND Defense!

Historic year for the Jazz, we might not see a better year. Best chance for a championship is this year. Tax will screw things up.
 
It's wierd to me how much anger people have towards our draft pick. Draft picks don't help you their first year or even second. Sometimes it takes 5 years or so until they are solid players that help you win. That's why you take the best player regardless of fit. Dumb GMs pass on better players because they already have a good player at that position. Dok might end up being a bad pick but that's a long ways away from knowing. He definitely isn't a bad pick because of his position.
 
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Ron Mexico said:
It's wierd to me how much anger people have towards our draft pick. Draft picks don't help you their first year or even second. Sometimes it takes 5 years or so until they are solid players that help you win. That's why you take the best player regardless of fit. Dumb GMs pass on better players because they already have a good player at that position. Dok might end up being a bad pick but that's a long ways away from knowing. He definitely isn't a bad pick because of his position.
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I agree and I disagree. You said that draft picks don't help you in their first or second year.
I kinda feel like our very own Donovan mitchell helped us in his first two years.

I'm certain Donovan isn't the only player to ever help a team in their first or second years either.

Now if you said they USUALLY don't help in their first 2 years then I can dig it.

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Its because teams like Miami, Philly, and OKC are finding contributors through the draft that make a difference first year.

Combine that with Quin being touted as a development coach and the development of draft picks not happening at the rate of other teams and it is frustrating.

Fans have every right to be upset about not seeing similar development out of our youth.
 
fishonjazz said:
I agree and I disagree. You said that draft picks don't help you in their first or second year.
I kinda feel like our very own Donovan mitchell helped us in his first two years.

I'm certain Donovan isn't the only player to ever help a team in their first or second years either.

Now if you said they USUALLY don't help in their first 2 years then I can dig it.

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I'm saying that as a general statement. You're right some do. It's very very rare for a rookie to help win. A little less rare the second year, but still not likely. There are always exceptions but generally you aren't drafting a player to help you that year. So my point remains that the irrational dislike if the pick is misguided.

Mitchell was very rare as a rookie and what he did. I think we can all agree. Fortunately we had Gobert to really allow some of what he did. I also think the team liked him and saw potential. They were willing to sacrifice winning to help develop him. But Mitchell showed otherwise.
 
Having Royce starting and Niang as a rotational guy says a lot about what the Jazz do from a developmental perspective. You can add Joe to the mix as well. It is rare for the process to not take multiple years. Plenty of misses but notable successes which is true in the draft as well. Personally I really like both picks this year. I am curious who are the front offices and coaches that are doing better at development and drafting? I am sure there are some but I would put us in the top 25%.
 
The Jazz Wonderbra said:
Important minutes help you develop. Garbage? Not so much.

When Austin Rivers scored 25 points in 12 minutes, one would think you try out Oni to see if he can do it. No one else could stop him.
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Sometimes guys just get hot, he was shutout completely in the second half. Fact is guys like Ingles, Royce, and Niang give the jazz a better shot at winning, jazz are in serious win now mode. So why would the jazz give those mins away for guys who would mess with that?
 
The Jazz Wonderbra said:
Important minutes help you develop. Garbage? Not so much.

When Austin Rivers scored 25 points in 12 minutes, one would think you try out Oni to see if he can do it. No one else could stop him.
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This. Even if it were just to drop 2 or 3 good hard fouls on him. Get him out of his rhythm. Shake him up a bit. Better than just waving a hand at him while he is in the zone. To a player really feeling it like that if they aren't being boddied up and pushed around a bit just having a "hand in the face" does really nothing to throw them off their game. Ingles was so successful against push-off P in that series because he invaded his personal space. Made him feel uncomfortable. It's not about trying to hurt the guy but by golly make sure he knows you are there.
 
Ron Mexico said:
I'm saying that as a general statement. You're right some do. It's very very rare for a rookie to help win. A little less rare the second year, but still not likely. There are always exceptions but generally you aren't drafting a player to help you that year. So my point remains that the irrational dislike if the pick is misguided.

Mitchell was very rare as a rookie and what he did. I think we can all agree. Fortunately we had Gobert to really allow some of what he did. I also think the team liked him and saw potential. They were willing to sacrifice winning to help develop him. But Mitchell showed otherwise.
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Maybe Tony bradley has caused some recency bias. That pick was a disaster. (And was a similar pick to Dok in that they are both centers and picked around the same spot)

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Thee Idiotic Minivan K said:
Sometimes guys just get hot, he was shutout completely in the second half. Fact is guys like Ingles, Royce, and Niang give the jazz a better shot at winning, jazz are in serious win now mode. So why would the jazz give those mins away for guys who would mess with that?
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Yeah but I think you need to be able to adjust your tactics on the fly. When I played in HS we had a trapping set we could switch to as easily as moving from a man to zone D. This allowed us to get bodies on their hot shooter and shut him down, even if it were only for 2-3 plays. Usually was enough to cool off the hot hand. Sometimes there were guys you were not going to slow down, then it was a matter of keeping your head about you, play good ball, and weather the storm.

I do not think the Jazz do enough on-the-fly adjustments like that. Why don't they have a standard trap-D they can switch to. They will trap, but usually something like that they only deploy after a major change, like between games, or after half-time. For example in the last Dallas game after half-time they did a better job of denying Rivers the ball. Why were they not prepared to make that adjustment on the fly? They should be able to switch up their D during the game without waiting for a chance at a major re-tooling, which is how it feels.
 
fishonjazz said:
Maybe Tony bradley has caused some recency bias. That pick was a disaster.

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Bradley, Burke, Lyles, etc. all left a bad taste with picks that relatively high up that we more or less blew when nearly every other pundit out there had guys ranked higher on their big boards that then absolutely ended up performing better. Mitchell and Gobert, let's face it, were crap shoots that ended up panning out, not some savant-level magic-ball ****. Sure they saw the potential, but you have to argue they saw the same potential in Bradley, or Lyles, otherwise why did they pick them? It is just that this strategy appears to either be a homerun or a turd, not much in between. And yeah, I am not sold on their ability to develop talent as it was touted. I think they are probably middle of the road good at it, but not some rookie-whisperer shaman **** as implied.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Yeah but I think you need to be able to adjust your tactics on the fly. When I played in HS we had a trapping set we could switch to as easily as moving from a man to zone D. This allowed us to get bodies on their hot shooter and shut him down, even if it were only for 2-3 plays. Usually was enough to cool off the hot hand. Sometimes there were guys you were not going to slow down, then it was a matter of keeping your head about you, play good ball, and weather the storm.

I do not think the Jazz do enough on-the-fly adjustments like that. Why don't they have a standard trap-D they can switch to. They will trap, but usually something like that they only deploy after a major change, like between games, or after half-time. For example in the last Dallas game after half-time they did a better job of denying Rivers the ball. Why were they not prepared to make that adjustment on the fly? They should be able to switch up their D during the game without waiting for a chance at a major re-tooling, which is how it feels.
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You do realize he was completely shut down in the second half. You do realize Rivers is a role player that got scorching hot. Many of the shots he made was against good defense. You don’t make on the fly adjustments for a role player, that just opens things up for the star players, it’s ****ing Rivers and he never scored again after his outburst. What matters is we kept Luka under control.
 
Thee Idiotic Minivan K said:
You do realize he was completely shut down in the second half. You do realize Rivers is a role player that got scorching hot. Many of the shots he made was against good defense. You don’t make on the fly adjustments for a role player, that just opens things up for the star players, it’s ****ing Rivers and he never scored again after his outburst. What matters is we kept Luka under control.
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Wow you really don't understand basketball do you?
 
LogGrad98 said:
Wow you really don't understand basketball do you?
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There’s more than one basketball Philosophy. What the jazz did worked. This is their rotation. This isn’t some JV Highschool league. This is the pros man!! You don’t just untrust the rotation you use, you let them figure it out trust the team that got you there. The game was never out of control, and the rotation rewarded Quin for his faith in his unit. The most important thing is that Dallas’s best players didn’t go off, yes Luka had thirty, but most of his damage was when it was too late and he came no where close to his trip/doub form. Relax.
 
LogGrad98 said:
This allowed us to get bodies on their hot shooter and shut him down, even if it were only for 2-3 plays. Usually was enough to cool off the hot hand.
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Hot hands typically cool with or without such adjustments. They follow the binomial distribution fairly well.
 
Remember when Westbrook decided he was going to "shut down Marco Rubio?" Remember how that lost his team the playoff series?

It's safe to assume that the team with a top 5 NBA defense knows what the Hell they are doing with personnel and defensive adjustments. The fact that they stick to their system and aren't reactionary speaks to their confidence in that system.

If the Jazz wholesale changed their philosophy over Phillip freaking Rivers, I would be a LOT more worried about their coaching and consistency.
 
Also other teams seem to like and covet some of the Jazz coaching and development staff. Johnnie Bryant is now the associate head coach in New York, Zach Guthrie is on the bench in Dallas, and DeSagana Diop has been hired on as an assistant in Houston. Also before that PHX hired away Igor Kokoskov to develop their young roster, there could be a few more but those are the main names I can remember.

Not saying Jazz coaches don't make mistakes and are perfect but just that they are better than you are prolly giving them credit for.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Bradley, Burke, Lyles, etc. all left a bad taste with picks that relatively high up that we more or less blew when nearly every other pundit out there had guys ranked higher on their big boards that then absolutely ended up performing better. Mitchell and Gobert, let's face it, were crap shoots that ended up panning out, not some savant-level magic-ball ****. Sure they saw the potential, but you have to argue they saw the same potential in Bradley, or Lyles, otherwise why did they pick them? It is just that this strategy appears to either be a homerun or a turd, not much in between. And yeah, I am not sold on their ability to develop talent as it was touted. I think they are probably middle of the road good at it, but not some rookie-whisperer shaman **** as implied.
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I don't think that's our drafting strategy or history, but if it is I'm completely okay with it. I'll happily take that ratio of turds to home runs. I guess we're due a home run again soon.
 
Bradley, Burke, Lyles, etc. all left a bad taste with picks that relatively high up that we more or less blew when nearly every other pundit out there had guys ranked higher on their big boards that then absolutely ended up performing better.
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That's absolutely not true. The Burke pick was widely cheered. Lyles went exactly about where he was projected to go.
Mitchell and Gobert, let's face it, were crap shoots that ended up panning out, not some savant-level magic-ball
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Crap shoots is when you take a flyer on a pick, not when you target a player and pull the strings to trade for them. And it looks like in this case the Jazz were the "every other pundit" who had players on their board that all the other teams stupidly passed up. If that Jazz are dumber than other teams, why did Denver trade both those guys to us ?
 
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