The Minimum FA Bargain Bin

[whatthe]

It is underrated but Niang can throw the lob pass to Rudy. We need that skill from all of our players except the center spot.

 

[KqWIN]

It feels like ages since I’ve been baited into a really silly argument on Jazzfanz, so I guess I’ll bite on this one. Your argument has already been torn to shreds by other posters who have done so far more eloquently than I can, but hey, the more the merrier, right?

First of all, quit comparing Mitchell’s playoff series as a rookie or 2nd year player to that of a veteran project like Niang. If you searched the internet in it’s entirety, could you possibly find a more apples-to-oranges type of argument? Mitchell was a young player who was the centerpiece of our team. He literally had the expectations of an entire franchise thrust upon his shoulders and if memory serves me correctly, didn’t he manage to rise to the occasion and carry his team to a playoff victory over a favored OKC squad featuring Westbrook and Paul George? Are we really comparing a guy with a playoff scoring average of around 35ppg to Georges Niang??

As was already mentioned, Niang basically fails every metric necessary to be considered an elite shooter- be it in his regular season performance or playoffs. He can’t get his shot off quickly (a hallmark trait of elite shooters), cannot create his own shot in any manner, is abysmal shooting off the dribble, can’t get to the rack when the jumper isn’t falling, can’t get to the foul line, and so on and so on. Niang has ONE NBA skillset: He can knock down 3 pointers at a decent rate when the Defense is cheating over to another player, leaving him open to take an uncontested shot. That is the beginning, middle, and end of the list of things Niang does well.

Probably worse than all of that is the fact that him returning to this team only serves as a huge roadblock to the development of other players who might actually possess a variety of NBA skills that can be developed. I don’t know what this “Holistic Approach” is that you take when evaluating players but you might want to take a holistic approach towards reviewing your holistic approach because it’s complete ****.

I guess if you say the argument is ripped to shreds it becomes true? I'm not really seeing it. Everyone keeps mentioning the terrible playoff series and I have acknowledged that it indeed terrible. What it comes down to is how we should evaluate players. Should we evaluate them by a larger body of work, or simply from their most recent playoff series?

I believe that we should take a more holistic view and literally no one has explained to me how that's a bad take. Seriously, if anyone can tell why that's incorrect I'd love to hear it. Instead, everyone just regurgitates that his last playoff series was bad. And to what effect? I've explained why that's not how I evaluate things. Mitchell is great example of how playoff performance can change so suddenly. Hell, Niang is a great example of this as well. He was really good against DEN. He was really bad against LAC. What gives? Fact is, there is a ton of variance in small sizes and you probably should form your opinion entirely from the last SSS.

As far as being an "elite" shooter, you know what I mean by that. If you really think that he is "elite" because he can make shots in the same way that Kevin Durant does you I don't know what to tell you. Of course I'm talking about his ability to shoot 3's in a catch in situation. That's what his role is and he's very good at. If you want to make the semantics argument and say he's elite because he doesn't shoot like KD, fine. That was never my argument in the first place. My point is that Niang is great at doing something that is highly valued in this league.

The last point is honestly laughable. If Niang is so awful, how is he blocking all of these young promising players? He's not. He's playing because he's better than them. It does make everything add up. We want Niang gone because he's the bogeyman that's preventing all of our amazing young talent from flourishing. Right...it all makes sense now. The irony is, Niang is that guy you're talking about. He developed his game, earned his playing time, and he performed well as a rotation player this year.

PS: I do respect that when you don't know what a word means, you use that as a personal insult. 10/10 funniest thing I've seen on this forum.

 

[LogGrad98]

The entirety of their playoff performances would be one thing, but doesn't seem like we're even doing that here. We're doing one playoff series.

I'm judging Niang on his entire career. You're judging it on a series. It's funny you made the argument against yourself, so I think we're done here.

It is based on his entire playoffs performances. How is that irrelevant?

 

[KqWIN]

It is based on his entire playoffs performances. How is that irrelevant?

It’s not irrelevant. I’m saying it is and you’re only considering one playoff series. When you cite a 20% 3 point shooter stat and define him as that, that is a one series number.

It’s also not the only thing that’s relevant. Countless examples of players who play good/bad in the playoffs until they don’t. That’s just the nature of small sample sizes.

 

[homeytennis]

It is based on his entire playoffs performances. How is that irrelevant?

He was a late second round pick by the Pacers and eventually waived to be picked up by the Warriors and waived to eventually find his way to the Stars where he was a GLeague all star. Let's not forget that Brantley, Kevin Murphy, Morris Almond, Eric Griffin and Pierre Jackson have also been GLeague all stars.

 

[Jazzman12]

I guess if you say the argument is ripped to shreds it becomes true? I'm not really seeing it. Everyone keeps mentioning the terrible playoff series and I have acknowledged that it indeed terrible. What it comes down to is how we should evaluate players. Should we evaluate them by a larger body of work, or simply from their most recent playoff series?

I believe that we should take a more holistic view and literally no one has explained to me how that's a bad take. Seriously, if anyone can tell why that's incorrect I'd love to hear it. Instead, everyone just regurgitates that his last playoff series was bad. And to what effect? I've explained why that's not how I evaluate things. Mitchell is great example of how playoff performance can change so suddenly. Hell, Niang is a great example of this as well. He was really good against DEN. He was really bad against LAC. What gives? Fact is, there is a ton of variance in small sizes and you probably should form your opinion entirely from the last SSS.

As far as being an "elite" shooter, you know what I mean by that. If you really think that he is "elite" because he can make shots in the same way that Kevin Durant does you I don't know what to tell you. Of course I'm talking about his ability to shoot 3's in a catch in situation. That's what his role is and he's very good at. If you want to make the semantics argument and say he's elite because he doesn't shoot like KD, fine. That was never my argument in the first place. My point is that Niang is great at doing something that is highly valued in this league.

The last point is honestly laughable. If Niang is so awful, how is he blocking all of these young promising players? He's not. He's playing because he's better than them. It does make everything add up. We want Niang gone because he's the bogeyman that's preventing all of our amazing young talent from flourishing. Right...it all makes sense now. The irony is, Niang is that guy you're talking about. He developed his game, earned his playing time, and he performed well as a rotation player this year.

PS: I do respect that when you don't know what a word means, you use that as a personal insult. 10/10 funniest thing I've seen on this forum.

I’m still trying to figure out why Donovan is so paramount in your “Holistic” methodology when evaluating Niang. 2 players who play different positions, are asked to do different things within Utah’s Offense, and couldn’t have more different overall roles with the team. You also keep insisting that those who disagree with you keep pointing to 1 playoff series when that just isn’t true. But even with that being the case, I’ll humor you. Let’s take a quick look at both Donovan and Niang’s ENTIRE body of work. Both are 4 year veterans in the NBA. Donovan is a career 36% 3-point shooter and is averaging close to 24ppg. In his playoff career, his numbers actually jump up to 39% 3-point shooting and 29ppg. In his regular season career, Niang shoots a very good 40% from 3-point land while averaging 5ppg. In his playoff career, his 3-point shooting drops nearly 6 percentage points and his PPG stays almost exactly the same.

So in the simplest of terms, Donovan takes his game to higher levels come playoff time while Niang regresses. I’m pretty sure that Niang will always be a solid 3-point shooter during the regular season. This is for very obvious reasons. During an 82 game regular season, teams don’t really have the time to make wholesale changes to their Defensively philosophy for a February game vs the Utah Jazz and exactly ZERO NBA teams are going to throw wrinkles in their defense designed to stop Georges Niang.

And while Niang can knock down spot up 3’s at an impressive rate, I find it troublesome that he cannot get his shot off quickly, create shots for himself, shoot off the dribble, or even develop 1 offense go to move that frees him up from the defense and allows for him to get a shot off. I think it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that these deficiencies are magnified 10 fold come playoff time when teams have an entire series to game plan accordingly. Thus, we’re always going to see the same pattern from Niang. Solid 3 point shooting in limited minutes during the regular season, and defenses exploiting his weaknesses come playoff time, resulting in Niang not being able to do the 1 thing he does well.

As to your question as to why Quin plays Niang if he’s so bad, you can just reference the points I’ve already made above. Simply put: Niang is an effective shooter in games 1 thru 82 and our head coach is proving himself to be a creature of habit. Unfortunately, we’re starting to see a pattern with Quin in which he’s not willing to go through some regular season growing pains in order to have his team more ready to compete come playoff time. If you’d like to argue that point, you’re going to have a hard time swaying me considering we’re coming off a season in which we had the best record in the league during the regular season and then couldn’t even get to a game 7 in the 2nd round versus a lower seeded team. I wonder, why is that?

Niang’s 3-point shooting prowess during the regular season is certainly going to get him another NBA contract. Not only that, whichever team signs him is going to look pretty smart during the regular season, only to see the EXACT same problems resurface once it’s playoff time. Then that team is going to realize that they have a player who they can’t put on the court during the post season and who still has 2 more years on his contract. That team then has to burn an asset or two just so they can move his contract and replace him with a player that is actually useful in the playoffs. I’m not a religious man, but I’m praying that the Utah Jazz are not that team.

 

[Elizah Huge]

Seen multiple people say they like/want Nader. Phoenix fans absolutely hate him and were dumbfounded when he was getting any minutes over Craig at all.

 

[KqWIN]

I’m still trying to figure out why Donovan is so paramount in your “Holistic” methodology when evaluating Niang. 2 players who play different positions, are asked to do different things within Utah’s Offense, and

If you took the time to google what holistic means, you might have a clue and realize that the comparison has nothing to do with their games. The comparison is that you can't look a small portion of a player's career and let that define them. There are countless examples of players having wide variance year to year or even series to series. Niang himself is one of those players. Played great against DEN, completely stunk against LAC. Point is, you should look at more than the most recent series to evaluate a player. It's not enough to look at a 4-7 game sample size and call it good. You have take a wider, more inclusive view and consider more things. One might call that a holistic approach.

 

[Rubashov]

Also love trying Bonga out.

Thats what college is for mate.

 

[Miggs]

Any interest in trying to rehabilitate Justise Winslow? Been injured a lot, but he used to be decent and is still young.

I mean, at the vet minimum, sure, maybe. If we have a roster spot. If we don’t, then no.

 

[infection]

Alright, so I know this is the minimum FA thread, but I looked at the list of all free agents that are somewhat within reason and there are some interesting names that a lot of these guys are going to go for value and that we have a decent change at landing one or two that could help up. I think any of these guys could have value even if semi-rotational.

[no particular order]

Danny Green
OPJ
Oladipo (okay, he's not actually on this list, but I was curious how I've heard absolutely nothing about his free agency)
Iguodala
Redick (too duplicative, would only sign for small role and a minimum, but why wouldn't he just go to LAL or Nets?)
Olynyk
Ariza
Tucker
Robin Lopez
Kaminsky
Elfrid Payton
Garrett Temple
Reggie Bullock
Mo Harkless
Wes Matthews
Biyombo
Batum
Dwight Howard
Markieff Morris
Matthew Dellavedova
Alex Len
Torrey Craig
Semi Ojeleye
Gorgui Dieng
RHJ

 

[jom2003]

I’m still trying to figure out why Donovan is so paramount in your “Holistic” methodology when evaluating Niang. 2 players who play different positions, are asked to do different things within Utah’s Offense, and couldn’t have more different overall roles with the team. You also keep insisting that those who disagree with you keep pointing to 1 playoff series when that just isn’t true. But even with that being the case, I’ll humor you. Let’s take a quick look at both Donovan and Niang’s ENTIRE body of work. Both are 4 year veterans in the NBA. Donovan is a career 36% 3-point shooter and is averaging close to 24ppg. In his playoff career, his numbers actually jump up to 39% 3-point shooting and 29ppg. In his regular season career, Niang shoots a very good 40% from 3-point land while averaging 5ppg. In his playoff career, his 3-point shooting drops nearly 6 percentage points and his PPG stays almost exactly the same.

So in the simplest of terms, Donovan takes his game to higher levels come playoff time while Niang regresses. I’m pretty sure that Niang will always be a solid 3-point shooter during the regular season. This is for very obvious reasons. During an 82 game regular season, teams don’t really have the time to make wholesale changes to their Defensively philosophy for a February game vs the Utah Jazz and exactly ZERO NBA teams are going to throw wrinkles in their defense designed to stop Georges Niang.

And while Niang can knock down spot up 3’s at an impressive rate, I find it troublesome that he cannot get his shot off quickly, create shots for himself, shoot off the dribble, or even develop 1 offense go to move that frees him up from the defense and allows for him to get a shot off. I think it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that these deficiencies are magnified 10 fold come playoff time when teams have an entire series to game plan accordingly. Thus, we’re always going to see the same pattern from Niang. Solid 3 point shooting in limited minutes during the regular season, and defenses exploiting his weaknesses come playoff time, resulting in Niang not being able to do the 1 thing he does well.

As to your question as to why Quin plays Niang if he’s so bad, you can just reference the points I’ve already made above. Simply put: Niang is an effective shooter in games 1 thru 82 and our head coach is proving himself to be a creature of habit. Unfortunately, we’re starting to see a pattern with Quin in which he’s not willing to go through some regular season growing pains in order to have his team more ready to compete come playoff time. If you’d like to argue that point, you’re going to have a hard time swaying me considering we’re coming off a season in which we had the best record in the league during the regular season and then couldn’t even get to a game 7 in the 2nd round versus a lower seeded team. I wonder, why is that?

Niang’s 3-point shooting prowess during the regular season is certainly going to get him another NBA contract. Not only that, whichever team signs him is going to look pretty smart during the regular season, only to see the EXACT same problems resurface once it’s playoff time. Then that team is going to realize that they have a player who they can’t put on the court during the post season and who still has 2 more years on his contract. That team then has to burn an asset or two just so they can move his contract and replace him with a player that is actually useful in the playoffs. I’m not a religious man, but I’m praying that the Utah Jazz are not that team.

Quin played Jeff Green over Niang before DL cut Jeff to force Niang upon Quin.

Now that DL is gone, I doubt Quin would be all that interested in bringing Niang back.