This guy is Mormon?

[Beantown]

Well, you have to remember to make the distinction between what USED to be doctrine and what currently is NOW doctrine. So Beantown is completely right, that doctrine is dynamic and in flux, and even though it used to be doctrine, we put it in the past so it doesn't matter anymore.

- Craig

It never was doctrine, it was something he wrote in a book. The biggest problem with outsiders looking at the church is if a member or church official isnt perfect then it's something wrong with the church not the individual.

 

[The-Joker]

It never was doctrine, it was something he wrote in a book. The biggest problem with outsiders looking at the church is if a member or church official isnt perfect then it's something wrong with the church not the individual.

Ya... stupid "outsiders"... it's their fault... they are supposed to know people called directly by god to dictate his true word and prophesy unto the "gentiles" about God's path in challenges pertaining to their life (like biblical justification of racism), are only speaking the true word of god "most" of the time, and they, themselves, are supposed to differentiate from The Word and everything else. Stupid, stupid, outsiders.

But you have to give them some leeway for 'some' confusion. Its not like McConkie was some racist ward clerk with a webblog where he complained about negroes and kids playing on his lawn. McConkie, apart from the prophet, was probably the top church member of the time, when it came to interpreting the scriptures, and determining "doctrine". It's a little confusing when 'that' guy is wrong.

I mean anything McConkie said was pretty much doctrine. It would be like if the current President of the Quorum of the 12 were to give a talk during General Conference and really insult and dictate blatant inaccuracies about a group of people who were born into their given predicament and did nothing themselves to cause their inferred "source of shame" to be placed upon them... I mean that would be ABSOLUTELY ludicrous LOL for a man of god to "damn" them for something they can't control, I mean Jesus Christ HIMSELF said stuff like "Judge not (unrighteously), lest ye be judged". I mean that would be absolutely LUDICROUS and would NEVER-EVER HAPPEN....

....oh, wait.... nevermind guys... carry on.


As a member of The Church I find it easiest to deal with my conscience, by taking what Ballard and McConkie say with a grain of salt. Those guys had/have a tendency to take prominent political/moral arguments of the time and justify their personal beliefs with an "uninspired church interpretation" that is only valid until it is disproven. I'm not saying those guys are wrong all of the time, they are probably even right most of the time, it's just the things they could be wrong about cause serious PR-trouble for the Church. I mean it seems like everytime Ballard gets a controversial thought, the church has to go all "Don-Draper" to defend their boy.

 

[Beantown]

The point is people can't seem to separate individuals from the church. The biggest reason people go inactive is individuals actions or words. Not the church. The same for people outside the church. When a Mormon does something indivually offensive they blame the church.

 

[NUMBERICA]

The point is people can't seem to separate individuals from the church. The biggest reason people go inactive is individuals actions or words. Not the church. The same for people outside the church. When a Mormon does something indivually offensive they blame the church.

Any man having one drop of the seed of [Cain] ... in him cannot hold the Priesthood and if no other Prophet ever spoke it before I will say it now in the name of Jesus Christ I know it is true and others know it.

I don't understand how you can't blame the church for having a 100+ year legacy of racism. These are the prophets and presidents that say they confer with god directly and make DOCTRINAL proclamations in his name. The church started and continue to use the above guy's name for the name of their highest institution of learning on top of that. How CAN you separate them?

If this is just Brigham Young being a total ******* in god's name, is that a ticket to spirit prison, outer darkness, or does he still go to the celestial kingdom because of his namesake? Maybe spirit prison and THEN celestial glory? I'd love to hear the thoughts on this if Young, F. Smith, Taylor, etc were just acting on their own accord in god's name and instituting and furthering a doctrine and policy as such.

 

[NUMBERICA]

It's hard to "understand" when your intent, or approach is to find fault or scoff and scorn.

I will probably never understand because I have never understood, and upon learning more of the church's history on this matter it left such a bad taste in my mouth I quickly gave up on my LDS apologism. So I think it's fair to say I will probably never understand.

And for a creator that is omnipotent and omniscient, why change anything you do or think? What is right and what isn't can't change and there would be no incentive to change it. Whether that's instituting a ban on bestowing the priesthood based purely on racial criteria, or whether that's reversing it.

I am an atheist if that wasn't already known. May more negative rep flow my way.

 

[Craig K. Manscill]

It never was doctrine, it was something he wrote in a book.

Well now, it was an explanation of something that was doctrine, undeniably, since it was also a policy of the church for many years, that of denying blacks the priesthood. We can try to forget the racist things prophets said by saying they were putting a few of their opinions into the doctrine without consulting God about it, but to deny a policy our church upheld and defended for many years as not being doctrine is counterproductive. Instead, we should embrace it as part of our heritage, our history! Let the world know that we have nothing to hide. We used to be racist, and now we aren't. Can you imagine how many members would want to join our church and embrace our doctrine if we told the truth?

- Craig

 

[Beantown]

I don't understand how you can't blame the church for having a 100+ year legacy of racism. These are the prophets and presidents that say they confer with god directly and make DOCTRINAL proclamations in his name. The church started and continue to use the above guy's name for the name of their highest institution of learning on top of that. How CAN you separate them?

If this is just Brigham Young being a total ******* in god's name, is that a ticket to spirit prison, outer darkness, or does he still go to the celestial kingdom because of his namesake? Maybe spirit prison and THEN celestial glory? I'd love to hear the thoughts on this if Young, F. Smith, Taylor, etc were just acting on their own accord in god's name and instituting and furthering a doctrine and policy as such.

From Adam til now there has never been a perfect prophet, nor will ever be one. Brighamm Young was a product of his time. He did wonders for the church but I believe he made mistakes along the way. Just as know there are church leaders that make mistakes. But they have nothing to do with my spiritually or salvation. I also don't judge them either but I'm aware they are not perfect nor are they suppose to be.

 

[Beantown]

Scriptures are the only place I get church doctrine from.

 

[NUMBERICA]

These aren't small mistakes. For whatever reason, I guess God had a real love affair with the worst secretaries imaginable.


God: Tell everyone my love is unending and there is eternal salvation for any that should seek it.

Young: Oh, blacks can't have the priesthood because of a curse, it shall never be lifted, or it shall under ridiculous conditions, blacks are uncouth, uncomely, of sub-human intelligence, and wild, and if you marry interracially god will strike you down? Got it. Crystal.

God: ... (for 130 years) Oh, sorry! I was busy. Brigham, you heard me wrong. Brigham?

Kimball: I'm here, sir.

God: Oh, yes, well, every male is to have the opportunity to earn the priesthood.

OR

God: Remember how the restorer of the one true gospel gave the priesthood to two black guys?

Young: Yeah.

God: Just kidding. They're grand-fathered in, they're cool, but you can't let any other black guys have the priesthood.

Young: Why not?

God: Because Cain slew Abel 6,000 years ago.

Young: Okay, that's cool. But why now suddenly? This was never a specific policy before, and even if it was, did it just slip your mind in those many direct conversations with President Smith?

God: Don't worry about it. That's just how it is, and how it will be forever or somewhere pretty close to it.

Young: Okay.



I'm pretty bummed if these are the best answers the arbiter of creation and his chosen mouth-piece(s) have for us.

 

[Beantown]

These aren't small mistakes. For whatever reason, I guess God had a real love affair with the worst secretaries imaginable.


God: Tell everyone my love is unending and there is eternal salvation for any that should seek it.

Young: Oh, blacks can't have the priesthood because of a curse, it shall never be lifted, or it shall under ridiculous conditions, blacks are uncouth, uncomely, of sub-human intelligence, and wild, and if you marry interracially god will strike you down? Got it. Crystal.

God: ... (for 130 years) Oh, sorry! I was busy. Brigham, you heard me wrong. Brigham?

Kimball: I'm here, sir.

God: Oh, yes, well, every male is to have the opportunity to earn the priesthood.

OR

God: Remember how the restorer of the one true gospel gave the priesthood to two black guys?

Young: Yeah.

God: Just kidding. They're grand-fathered in, they're cool, but you can't let any other black guys have the priesthood.

Young: Why not?

God: Because Cain slew Abel 6,000 years ago.

Young: Okay, that's cool. But why now suddenly? This was never a specific policy before, and even if it was, did it just slip your mind in those many direct conversations with President Smith?

God: Don't worry about it. That's just how it is, and how it will be forever or somewhere pretty close to it.

Young: Okay.



I'm pretty bummed if these are the best answers the arbiter of creation and his chosen mouth-piece(s) have for us.

-To clarify a male does not have need the priesthood to reach heaven.

-I don't think you believe in the Bible but there are many examples of people or tribes being unable to have the priesthood.

-I don't claim to know why African American males were not allowed to have the priesthood though I have personal theories about it, also you could be arguing for women right now to have the priesthood as they are not allowed to have it

-All I know is that since beginning of man there have been races, tribes, people, sexes....etc....that were not allowed to carry the priesthood. It has nothing to do with salvation as every living human has the opportunity for salvation.

 

[GVC]

Scriptures are the only place I get church doctrine from.

Official statements by General Authorities = scripture, no? And while "Mormon Doctrine" may not have been an official church document, it was written by a highly respected member of the 12, Bruce R. McConkie. Anyway, whatevs, I try not to judge people based on the communities (dogmatic or otherwise) that they belong to, but rather on how they treat others. Most Mormons are pretty decent (in my experience) most of the time. meh.

 

[GVC]

-To clarify a male does not have need the priesthood to reach heaven.

What about for those who want to one day have their own worlds and spirit children? Would the priesthood not be necessary for these functions? It seems to me, while attaining the Celestial Kingdom night not require the priesthood, attaining the highest glory within the Celestial Kingdom, if you're male, does. Now, since the doctrine has changed, I'm guessing the priesthood can be conferred on all those who died without it (that is, black Mormons who didn't receive the priesthood while alive). Had the doctrine not changed, however, it's safe to say this would not be the case.

Look, you can believe what you want. You can believe that God hates ****, *******, Jews, women, whatever. You can believe that some people, based on whatever criteria you choose, are inferior/superior to others. I don't care. Just own it, and, while you're living at least, treat people with the respect ALL men are due.

edit: Along with being forbidden from holding the priesthood, African-American members could not receive temple ordinances, thus, as stated above, achieve the highest glory in the Celestial Kingdom (or, you know, be sealed to their spouse(s)).