Time to shake it up!

[Handlogten's Heros]

I see what KqWIN is saying. I do think the team has gotten a bit stale. Not that they arent fun to watch, but the lack of young emerging talent has been kind of a drag. The fact that Ochai is basically non-playable is a big part of that.

Yeah the team has gotten super stale... its been two whole games since we beat a playoff team in OT in dramatic fashion. BOOOOOOORINGGGGGG!!!

 

[KqWIN]

I think maybe you don't like basketball. I have looked forward to almost every game and found many things quite enjoyable. Not every night can be game 7 of the finals. The players and coaches are always trying. I don't know that there has ever been this much talent, skill, and parity in the league.

As far as meaning in the regular season... Landing in the top 6 really matters as the play-in can leave you open to 1 game flukiness. As much is made of the evil that is tanking... how many teams are really tanking right now. Like 3-4 maybe... I think the Hornets, Bulls, Wiz are accidentally garbage.

I think you are placing too much value on how the league is covered by the major outlets. People love the transactional side of the game... sometimes more than the game. You really kinda need to separate the two. I wanted us to tank as it is the best long term strategy imo. During the games though... I always want us to win.

Long story short... if you aren't enjoying this Jazz season I believe that is a you problem and I would guess most here are having a good time.... even if we occasionally fake trade our beloved players.

That's one way to put it. I would say I feel this way because of how much I like basketball. And it is a personal problem, like I said I wish I was with the people who were enjoying this season (not just the Jazz), but I cannot. I'm not the fun police. As stated, some people enjoy the low consequences of the games not mattering. For me, I prefer that the games do matter. I don't need them to be a game 7, but I need them to have some consequence. To each their own, nobody is wrong for how much they value the consequences and stakes of any given game. I'll always watch basketball, and I still catch up on every game eventually, but that's because I like basketball. The league and NBA as a competition, it's just garbage. It's not a handful of teams losing on purpose, it's the lack of meaning for actually winning the game. Regular season games just aren't relevant for any team that is relevant.

You're not wrong about people liking the transactional side of the game. I love it. But I think it's gotten so titled that it's 99% transactional and 1% actually the game. When we're at the point that trading someone like Lauri is a legitimate thought, it really kinda shows the imbalance IMO.

 

[Shad]

Please change the title to "Time to TANK it up." Thank you

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

That's one way to put it. I would say I feel this way because of how much I like basketball. And it is a personal problem, like I said I wish I was with the people who were enjoying this season (not just the Jazz), but I cannot. I'm not the fun police. As stated, some people enjoy the low consequences of the games not mattering. For me, I prefer that the games do matter. I don't need them to be a game 7, but I need them to have some consequence. To each their own, nobody is wrong for how much they value the consequences and stakes of any given game. I'll always watch basketball, and I still catch up on every game eventually, but that's because I like basketball. The league and NBA as a competition, it's just garbage. It's not a handful of teams losing on purpose, it's the lack of meaning for actually winning the game. Regular season games just aren't relevant for any team that is relevant.

You're not wrong about people liking the transactional side of the game. I love it. But I think it's gotten so titled that it's 99% transactional and 1% actually the game. When we're at the point that trading someone like Lauri is a legitimate thought, it really kinda shows the imbalance IMO.

Well if you like basketball maybe you aren't paying attention. While the regular season will always have less meaning than the playoffs, games have more consequences now than maybe ever. You said the regular season games are relevant for teams that are relevant.... The ****ing Warriors are out of the playoffs in they started today... the team that won the title and lost no significant pieces will have to fight their asses off to make sure they get into the playoffs. A team with two top 10 (or maybe 15) talents is going to have to fight to make the playoffs. You have like 2-3 favorites to win the title but a group of like 3-4 below them that could make a legitimate run... there are different styles and matchups that will favor certain teams... and jockeying for playoff position will be critical.

It is not 99% vs. 1% and that is a wild exaggeration. The product is obviously doing pretty well since franchise values, tv deals, etc are all headed to the moon.

Just feels like you are yelling at clouds and assuming everyone else is too.

 

[KqWIN]

Well if you like basketball maybe you aren't paying attention. While the regular season will always have less meaning than the playoffs, games have more consequences now than maybe ever. You said the regular season games are relevant for teams that are relevant.... The ****ing Warriors are out of the playoffs in they started today... the team that won the title and lost no significant pieces will have to fight their asses off to make sure they get into the playoffs. A team with two top 10 (or maybe 15) talents is going to have to fight to make the playoffs. You have like 2-3 favorites to win the title but a group of like 3-4 below them that could make a legitimate run... there are different styles and matchups that will favor certain teams... and jockeying for playoff position will be critical.

It is not 99% vs. 1% and that is a wild exaggeration. The product is obviously doing pretty well since franchise values, tv deals, etc are all headed to the moon.

Just feels like you are yelling at clouds and assuming everyone else is too.

I would never assume everyone else is. Like I said, I'm not the fun police. I don't decide why someone enjoys something. I've been very clear that this is just how I feel. Explicitly saying this multiple times. It very much feels like you're the telling me what I should enjoy.

btw, the franchise values, tv deals, etc skyrocketing have very little to do with the quality of the every day product.

 

[Eddie Zero]

What fantasy world are you living in? It would take Clarkson or Beasley plus probably 2 unprotected 1sts for OG.

no way. he wants out kind of is my impression, he is not in their the long term plans either imo. JC or Beasley helps them more this season in win now mode than keeping OG. they have enough defense. 2 unprotecteds? smh sure maybe if the picks are the nets and a cle pick the year after they finish 1st in the east or something lol You must really like OG

 

[KqWIN]

This is a pretty wild take. I think the league is in a great place. Parity is at an all-time high. Tanking isn’t incentivized as much as it used to be due to flattened lottery odds.

This season has already been a huge success due to the success of Markkanen. I don’t think a single person thought we’d end up with an all-star level player in year 1 of the post Gobert/Mitchell teams.

A reason a team like Toronto blowing it up is logical because they are who they are at this point. Ever since Kawhi left they have been a middle of the pack playoff team. How many years of of that should they endure before trying something different?

I think I have enjoyed this season more than the past couple ones besides the year we had the best record in the league.

The key is that winning is not incentivized. It's two sided, what is the incentive to lose and what is the incentive to win. Like I said, it's not really the handful of teams that are tanking hard that bother me. It's the lack of teams where the games truly matter. If the game matters a lot, chances are that team is not relevant anyways. Maybe this year is an exception with the Warriors, but forgive me if I can enjoy the league by anxiously watching if the Warriors win or not as they casually go through their season. I'm not really engaged in their season, happy for you if they are, but it also means basically nothing as Jazz fan. The Jazz are a prime example of a team where it doesn't really matter if they win or not. This season of, if we win cool but if not it's ok....but also shouldn't we really be losing.....yeah it's not my thing.

I think the last point you made really hones in on my perspective. There are many reasons to enjoy the NBA. The Jazz have a lot of little story lines and they are fun to watch just from a pure basketball perspective, on offense especially. But what I enjoy most about the NBA and sport is competition and stakes. Some people have outwardly said they enjoy low stakes games. Nothing wrong with that. I want to feel something, good or bad, if my team wins or loses. That's what gets me hooked. Last year, the stakes were infinitely higher and the Jazz did win a lot more games. Depending on what you prioritize, your enjoyment could be completely different. "Enjoyed" is probably the wrong word because the season was obviously filled with disappointment. But I was infinitely more engaged.

I do enjoy this team for a lot of the reasons you listed, especially Lauri. The thought of trading him, and that being a legitimate perspective, just makes me really hate the current meta in the NBA. If it's even a thought that the instant we get someone good, maybe we should just trade him so we can suck instead.....I hate it. I don't think that the thought is wrong, it's the just how the NBA works these days and that's what I hate.

 

[HermanG]

That's one way to put it. I would say I feel this way because of how much I like basketball. And it is a personal problem, like I said I wish I was with the people who were enjoying this season (not just the Jazz), but I cannot. I'm not the fun police. As stated, some people enjoy the low consequences of the games not mattering. For me, I prefer that the games do matter. I don't need them to be a game 7, but I need them to have some consequence. To each their own, nobody is wrong for how much they value the consequences and stakes of any given game. I'll always watch basketball, and I still catch up on every game eventually, but that's because I like basketball. The league and NBA as a competition, it's just garbage. It's not a handful of teams losing on purpose, it's the lack of meaning for actually winning the game. Regular season games just aren't relevant for any team that is relevant.

You're not wrong about people liking the transactional side of the game. I love it. But I think it's gotten so titled that it's 99% transactional and 1% actually the game. When we're at the point that trading someone like Lauri is a legitimate thought, it really kinda shows the imbalance IMO.

Man this is a fan board. We beat the Hornets and people start elevating guys to HoF... we lose to Bucks and the same guys want to trade everyone and move the team to Alaska.

Just enjoy the emotional roller coaster with a grain of salt and be goddamn grateful none of us actually runs the team.

 

[Jazzinho]

Man this is a fan board. We beat the Hornets and people start elevating guys to HoF... we lose to Bucks and the same guys want to trade everyone and move the team to Alaska.

Just enjoy the emotional roller coaster with a grain of salt and be goddamn grateful none of us actually runs the team.

Alaska Jazz would be fun.

 

[KqWIN]

Man this is a fan board. We beat the Hornets and people start elevating guys to HoF... we lose to Bucks and the same guys want to trade everyone and move the team to Alaska.

Just enjoy the emotional roller coaster with a grain of salt and be goddamn grateful none of us actually runs the team.

For the record, I do kind of love that stuff. What I don't like is, "yeah it's good that we lost" or "we should trade player XYZ because we're winning too much". I don't enjoy the low pressure, it's ok whether we win or lose stakes. Some people do, but it's not for me.

 

[Elizah Huge]

no way. he wants out kind of is my impression, he is not in their the long term plans either imo. JC or Beasley helps them more this season in win now mode than keeping OG. they have enough defense. 2 unprotecteds? smh sure maybe if the picks are the nets and a cle pick the year after they finish 1st in the east or something lol You must really like OG

You must be talking about a different player.


View: https://mobile.twitter.com/TheNBACentral/status/1605222588082716672


Zero shot he goes for as much as Donovan but you get the point.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I would never assume everyone else is. Like I said, I'm not the fun police. I don't decide why someone enjoys something. I've been very clear that this is just how I feel. Explicitly saying this multiple times. It very much feels like you're the telling me what I should enjoy.

btw, the franchise values, tv deals, etc skyrocketing have very little to do with the quality of the every day product.

Ain't telling ya what to enjoy... just saying you sound like you complaining for no reason. The basketball is very good. The stakes are higher than they have ever been imo. Not all 82 games will have huge stakes. Winning is rewarded though. If I didn't like basketball I'd say there should be less games or something... but I like basketball so I'm okay with a few games just being fun without lasting stakes. You do you... but if you aren't enjoying yourself I'd say you are in the minority.

What in the hell you mean those have little to do with the quality of the product. If the product was garbage (as you declared) then the price to give access to the product and own a piece of the product would not be skyrocketing.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

You must be talking about a different player.


View: https://mobile.twitter.com/TheNBACentral/status/1605222588082716672


Zero shot he goes for as much as Donovan but you get the point.

I think a fair price is a solid player with matching salary plus two picks... so Beasley and Cavs/Minny picks in 2025. The price they would actually sell for may not be a fair price though... so Beasley plus 3 picks would likely be what gets it done... and if the market is that wide it might be more... which is wild.

 

[Eddie Zero]

I think a fair price is a solid player with matching salary plus two picks... so Beasley and Cavs/Minny picks in 2025. The price they would actually sell for may not be a fair price though... so Beasley plus 3 picks would likely be what gets it done... and if the market is that wide it might be more... which is wild.

I am kind of surprised both of you think Raps could get that for him. JC, THT and the Nets/PHI pick this year ( lottery protected incase Embiid and KD both get season ending injuries) is more than enough for OG and Birch. if they want the younger less reliable Beasley instead of JC then you give them a pick swap with the Jazz own pick top 4 protected

 

[KqWIN]

Ain't telling ya what to enjoy... just saying you sound like you complaining for no reason. The basketball is very good. The stakes are higher than they have ever been imo. Not all 82 games will have huge stakes. Winning is rewarded though. If I didn't like basketball I'd say there should be less games or something... but I like basketball so I'm okay with a few games just being fun without lasting stakes. You do you... but if you aren't enjoying yourself I'd say you are in the minority.

What in the hell you mean those have little to do with the quality of the product. If the product was garbage (as you declared) then the price to give access to the product and own a piece of the product would not be skyrocketing.

Man I really don't agree with the stakes ever being higher. I think there's been a very clear de-emphasis from the players, franchises, and coverage of the league. Agree to disagree.

The reason why valuations around the league are skyrocketing is because of scarcity compared to demand, not because of popularity. The streaming planforms aren't breaking the bank because the NBA has gotten so much more popular or so many more people are viewing it. The NBA also does not really market itself on basketball/competition as a product. It's about the drama, and not in a good way.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

And the Lauri trade talk is just a thought exercise. The price it would take to move him versus what someone could/would offer likely has a sizable gap.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Man I really don't agree with the stakes ever being higher. I think there's been a very clear de-emphasis from the players, franchises, and coverage of the league. Agree to disagree.

How so? The play in places a real penalty on teams that sleepwalk through the season and may end up leaving a team like GS out of the playoffs. Many more teams pushed chips into the middle of the table this offseason believing they had a chance to make real progress or contend. The top is so much more wide open than it has been in years past.

The reason why valuations around the league are skyrocketing is because of scarcity compared to demand, not because of popularity. The streaming planforms aren't breaking the bank because the NBA has gotten so much more popular or so many more people are viewing it. The NBA also does not really market itself on basketball/competition as a product. It's about the drama, and not in a good way.

Why is demand so high relative to scarcity. If the product is such garbage a competitor should come in and just print money making something slightly better than garbage. marketing of the product is to pull in new customers so they won't advertise by showing amazing Brad Stevens ATO sets or going through advanced stats. They focus on Luka vs. Lebron. The drama and the product are inseparable... its part of what makes it so good. If the product was so bad the demand wouldn't be what it is. Whether it is increasing in popularity isn't particularly important. The product is good and that is why folks want to watch it and why companies want to shell out money to be the platform that carries it.



Look... live your life man.

 

[sip]

I am kind of surprised both of you think Raps could get that for him. JC, THT and the Nets/PHI pick this year ( lottery protected incase Embiid and KD both get season ending injuries) is more than enough for OG and Birch. if they want the younger less reliable Beasley instead of JC then you give them a pick swap with the Jazz own pick top 4 protected

You are so off base it is comical. That isn't even remotely close to enough for OG.

 

[KqWIN]

How so? The play in places a real penalty on teams that sleepwalk through the season and may end up leaving a team like GS out of the playoffs. Many more teams pushed chips into the middle of the table this offseason believing they had a chance to make real progress or contend. The top is so much more wide open than it has been in years past.

This always existed. I will say that the play in game was a great idea and new ideas like this are really moving the NBA in the right direction. What didn't exist is so many teams that actually sleepwalk through the season. Maybe GSW will pay for it, maybe not. The fact that they are indeed sleepwalking doesn't really change my opinion on this and I'm not at the edge of my seat waiting to see if they pay for it or not. I can't honestly say the standings are the way they are because of fierce competition that's going on. On top of that, we all very well know that there is a massive gap between playoff basketball and RS basketball. Honestly this is a result of basketball strategy advancing the way it has....but the delta between 82 vs 16 games is as big as ever.

Why is demand so high relative to scarcity. If the product is such garbage a competitor should come in and just print money making something slightly better than garbage. marketing of the product is to pull in new customers so they won't advertise by showing amazing Brad Stevens ATO sets or going through advanced stats. They focus on Luka vs. Lebron. The drama and the product are inseparable... its part of what makes it so good. If the product was so bad the demand wouldn't be what it is. Whether it is increasing in popularity isn't particularly important. The product is good and that is why folks want to watch it and why companies want to shell out money to be the platform that carries it.



Look... live your life man.

The amount of NBA teams has stayed the same. The amount of major sports leagues has stayed the same. The amount of people who are able and want to purchase has increased and so has the money that those people have. Owning a sports team is a huge status symbol and that's what billionaires want. The purchase is an extreme benefit tax wise, but also a good investment because sports franchises are scarce and don't go on sale often. Let's be real, it's also cool as **** to be a team owner. Likewise, the amount of competitors for live content has drastically increased as well as the money behind it. You basically have a new industry that was invented competing with an old industry on it's last legs that desperately needs live sports. Also it turns out that things get more expensive over time. If you bought a patch of grass 8 years ago and it turned into weeds it's probably more expensive today.

Luka vs LeBron ain't the main storyline in the NBA either. The biggest storyline this year has been whether or not a prominent player is a Nazi or just dumb. The NBA isn't pushing that of course, but it has been a bigger topic than the Warriors being in 11th place.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

This always existed. I will say that the play in game was a great idea and new ideas like this are really moving the NBA in the right direction. What didn't exist is so many teams that actually sleepwalk through the season. Maybe GSW will pay for it, maybe not. The fact that they are indeed sleepwalking doesn't really change my opinion on this and I'm not at the edge of my seat waiting to see if they pay for it or not. I can't honestly say the standings are the way they are because of fierce competition that's going on. On top of that, we all very well know that there is a massive gap between playoff basketball and RS basketball. Honestly this is a result of basketball strategy advancing the way it has....but the delta between 82 vs 16 games is as big as ever.



The amount of NBA teams has stayed the same. The amount of major sports leagues has stayed the same. The amount of people who are able and want to purchase has increased and so has the money that those people have. Owning a sports team is a huge status symbol and that's what billionaires want. The purchase is an extreme benefit tax wise, but also a good investment because sports franchises are scarce and don't go on sale often. Let's be real, it's also cool as **** to be a team owner. Likewise, the amount of competitors for live content has drastically increased as well as the money behind it. You basically have a new industry that was invented competing with an old industry on it's last legs that desperately needs live sports. Also it turns out that things get more expensive over time. If you bought a patch of grass 8 years ago and it turned into weeds it's probably more expensive today.

Luka vs LeBron ain't the main storyline in the NBA either. The biggest storyline this year has been whether or not a prominent player is a Nazi or just dumb. The NBA isn't pushing that of course, but it has been a bigger topic than the Warriors being in 11th place.

You are talking in weird circles… if the product was garbage it still would not have the incredible demand just because it’s a live sport… WNBA is a live sport… how’s the demand there? People falling all over themselves to go get hockey? Of course it’s cool to own a franchise… guess what… it was cool a few years ago too but now the franchise values have maybe doubled since 3-4 years ago… in a ****ing recession… why is that? Because there is a shot ton of money headed their way… why… cuz there are a **** ton of eyeballs that want to watch the sport. Which is weird because it’s all meaningless garbage. And no you can’t buy a patch of grass and turn it to weeds and flip it for more 8 years later just due to inflation.

Have fun yelling at clouds… I watched a great basketball game tonight that probably means nothing at the end of the year. Enjoyed it thoroughly.