Trade deadline discussion

[NUMBERICA]

Trading guys for picks and nothing else in return is blowing it up. But trading guys for same caliber players with different skillets isn't. Like DM for Jaylen Brown/Ben Simmons. Bogey for Jerami Grant. Clarkson/Jingles for Boucher. Etc

I'm aware what blowing it up is. I don't think there's any rock-solid ground for this build right now, I'm kinda over it, and it's near-impossible to trade for pieces that you can build a contender on and off the court.

But like I said, given where we're at, there's not an argument for a full teardown. Kinda frustrated we've never seen that (what could we have gotten for Al or Millsap, what players could we have drafted if we had actually committed to a FULL rebuild?), so that's probably factoring into my thoughts.

In any case, we need a major shakeup in the culture, whether tweaking, re-tooling, or nuking this build.

That 2017-'18 team was damn special. I didn't believe the Jazz were contenders, I just loved that I loved the guys on the team and the identity they built. It's a shame we over-corrected in 2019.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

This... I love Mike... but zero technicals in his career... none. There is nice guy and there is too non-confrontational.

Like have we had one "players only" meeting. They are kinda cheesy but they show some leadership... some desire... some communication... and some ability to confront issues and have hard conversations. We are soft.

and Mike is perfect for the Grit and Grind Grizzlies that need someone with a calm cool head because they have a lot of emotional tough guys.

Find a way to get a tough guy/ ******* or this team crashes and burns.

 

[jom2003]

This... I love Mike... but zero technicals in his career... none. There is nice guy and there is too non-confrontational.

Like have we had one "players only" meeting. They are kinda cheesy but they show some leadership... some desire... some communication... and some ability to confront issues and have hard conversations. We are soft.

And Bogey never gets his whistle. Still mad that we signed Favs instead of Crowder last off season. Could've saved our first round pick at the very least.

 

[fallenchicken]

I think you are 100% correct with your analysis. I do think Donovan wants to be an exposure type player. A "cool kid" as you called it. And I think Rudy is in that other category.

I think the main area where I disagree is the other stars you mentioned. Those guys like Giannis or Dame or Steph have their teams. It's built around them. They call the shots. Here, that isn't the case. We cater to Rudy. We build everything around Rudy.

Donovan could be a "cool kid" and take us places, but we don't know other than playoff performances. People on here have been bitching about Quin all day because they are starting to realize he doesn't know how to adapt. We are only built to win around Rudy. The funnel system. That has to bug Donovan. It would bug any young star in the league (Brown, etc) especially considering how Donovan has carried us in the playoffs.

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I think this is well put and it's something people here don't want to admit. We all love Gobert, and yes he is definitely the type of player who would stay his whole career. But we can't just blame everything on the perimeter players. This team was build around Rudy because a player like Rudy can't fit in. If he's going to be worth his max deal, you have to build everything around him. Rudy is a very limited player. he's great at what he can do, maybe the best rim defender ever, but teams have figured out how to pull him away from the rim. If he's not in the center, he's just not effective. A large chunk of our cap is committed to him. So the jazz went and got ball-handling perimeter guards who could shoot and drive. Before they did that, our team was capped by offensive liability. If the jazz wanted to be able to use gobert, they had to put only those type of players around him. And it's worked. As long as the jazz are playing the way they want to, as long as the funnel system is working, the team wins and has a great offense. But now the league has figured it out, and most teams can counter it and pull rudy out of the middle very easily. And on top of that, outside of Conley and Mitchell and Bogey, our guards and bench players have seriously declined. Ingles and Clarkeson are hurting the team this year. We need them to be good like they were last year to have a chance, but i'm not sure that's in the cards at this point.

So unless Gobert magically develops a post game, better hands, and we can start punishing teams for going small, or unless we can trade for a better, hopefully athletic guard, the jazz are kind of stuck.

If it ever came down to Mitchell or Gobert, I think the organizations first choice would be Mitchell. Mitchell is the type of player you need to win in the playoffs. Rudy is incredible but he takes up a third of your cap and you have to build the team around him, you need to have an elite offensive player to win in this league. Of course, if Mitchell is going to leave, that would change the situation. Hopefully it doesn't come to this and they can keep the core together. Because the core this year is still good. It's everyone else around them who aren't giving us what we need.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I wonder what the magical trade with Joe Ingles was. People here seem to think it was with GS for a lotto pick... I can promise it was not. GS can't even match salary that way and it would cost them infinity dollars in tax. I think it was something around Pat Bev, Prince, Ricky, or Bledsoe... not sure if that was two trades or one... I wonder if we were going to get Pat Bev... he's a bit of a clown show but he's top 10 on my list of "assholes we need on this team to give us energy and toughness".

I'd love to truly know... and if Quin over-ruled then he gets even more of the blame pie here.

 

[416Klawzz]

and Mike is perfect for the Grit and Grind Grizzlies that need someone with a calm cool head because they have a lot of emotional tough guys.

Find a way to get a tough guy/ ******* or this team crashes and burns.

His name was Jae Crowder

 

[Thee Jazz Fan]

He plays above average perimeter defense.

And I think he's viewed as this great caretaker of the offense, but its the opposite. He doesn't shoot the shots you have to shoot because he can't make them... he turns it over a lot and 90% of the turnovers are ones where he isn't trying to do something. You could literally play Paschall there and have him bring it up the court if you want to call that a pg. Butler has struggled but a lot of his mistakes are missed shots or him trying to make passes... Forrest gets stripped doing ****ing nothing, but all of a sudden Quin is super stressed about having a perimeter defender out there. Shaq was/is a better perimeter defender and at very least would shoot the open corner three rather than driving to nowhere or turning it over. We got multiple 3 second calls because he turns down the shot... drives and has nothing so Udoka parks his *** in the paint expecting a dump off or rebound opportunity but nothing happens.

Its just comical at this point. I think Forrest and Don are homies and there is a little bit of a nod given to Trent because of that tbh.

Which is why I asked what he actually does, yes he’s a good perimeter defender, but unless you are Rudy type good at it then you need to be able to play a lick of offense, which he doesn’t do at all, so why not just play Butler, who came into the league with a reputation of being a guy that gets deflections and steals and can play a little defense. As far as he and Huges goes, what’s the point in drafting them if you don’t develop them, and don’t tell me putting them in the G-League helps, beyond being there for a few weeks. I just don’t want to see either balling out for another team in the future.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

His name was Jae Crowder

I know... I've mentioned him infinity times.

 

[Joncolton]

The Jazz likely have to throw in Jared Butler or the 2026 1st round pick to make this happen - maybe not. Boston is going to be mad over the cap next season saving 13 M is a big deal for them.



Likewise here, the Jazz would need to include probably their 2028 pick and Elijah Hughes.


Roster would be:
C- R. Gobert, H. Whiteside, Udoka
PF - A. Horford, E. Pascall
SF - J. Grant, R. Gay, D. House
SG - D. Mitchell, R. O'Neale
PG - D. Schroeder, J. Richardson, T. Forrest

It looks like we are giving away shooting but remember Jerami Grant shoots 33% from 3, (shot 39% with Denver), and Horford shoots 36% (for his career) while Josh Richardson is hitting 40% on 3s, and Scroder is hitting 36% from deep. This team would be taller, longer, and more athletic with about the same shooting percentages.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Which is why I asked what he actually does, yes he’s a good perimeter defender, but unless you are Rudy type good at it then you need to be able to play a lick of offense, which he doesn’t do at all, so why not just play Butler, who came into the league with a reputation of being a guy that gets deflections and steals and can play a little defense. As far as he and Huges goes, what’s the point in drafting them if you don’t develop them, and don’t tell me putting them in the G-League helps, beyond being there for a few weeks. I just don’t want to see either balling out for another team in the future.

I'm 100% on your side.

 

[SoUjazzfan]

The games are so hard to watch I think I'd rather have a bunch of young players competing to make the starting rotation. We'd lose more than we win but effort and desire would sure be fun to see again. It's telling the Toronto "covid" game has been the most exciting one in six weeks.

 

[infection]

If he's not in the center, he's just not effective.

This belief is facilitated by the fact that Quin’s system, when exploited, puts him in no-man’s land. It’s the same reason why “Rudy Gobert can’t be on the floor in the playoffs” persisted for months after our playoff loss. And I’m not talking about nationally (that’s been out since forever) I’m talking about among our fan base and amongst almost everyone on this very forum. It’s a Quin thing and I said previously that we continue to watch Rudy get nailed to Quin’s cross. If you counter by not relying on the entire defense to be Gobert, then he’s at the very least Ben Simmons. But since Quin has based his entire defensive system for years on ceding certain shots and training a defense to do things that are nearly indistinguishable from being lazy, it of course is going to look like Rudy can’t survive outside the middle.

So before we throw away possibly the best defender ever, it might make some sense to fire the MF who keeps putting us in these situations. Just a thought.