Trade Mitchell (Include Clarkson)

[Ron Mexico]

If we are forced to trade either Mitchell or Gobert we have to trade Mitchell. His value will be way higher and we’d get way more for him. We’d be more likely to contend getting pieces for him than we would getting pieces for Gobert. Gobert is our entire defensive system where as we can make up the scoring we’d lose from Mitchell more than we could on defense from losing Gobert.

Were kind of ****ed no matter who we trade. You never get equal value back for a star player. You get 3 quarters back. We probably can get some decent picks but that isnt helping around either player for awhile. Its a step back for sure. But it might end up being the only option if there is a problem between the two. I dont know if there is though. Who we trade is dependent on what trades come up and what kind of commitment we have from the player staying I guess.

 

[LoPo]

Were kind of ****ed no matter who we trade. You never get equal value back for a star player. You get 3 quarters back. We probably can get some decent picks but that isnt helping around either player for awhile. Its a step back for sure. But it might end up being the only option if there is a problem between the two. I dont know if there is though. Who we trade is dependent on what trades come up and what kind of commitment we have from the player staying I guess.

We aren't that far off. It's ain't that hard -

Draft Herb Jones
Trade Clarkson for defense

That's literally all we had to do. We are a 30 win team before the all star break. That's good. However, we can't do **** in the playoffs unless we get some bulldog defender types.

Trade Clarkson for Smart if Boston takes that. Trade Conley for Smart before trading Bojan. We desperately need Bojan's spot up spacing and occasional postups.



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[Elizah Huge]

Were kind of ****ed no matter who we trade. You never get equal value back for a star player. You get 3 quarters back. We probably can get some decent picks but that isnt helping around either player for awhile. Its a step back for sure. But it might end up being the only option if there is a problem between the two. I dont know if there is though. Who we trade is dependent on what trades come up and what kind of commitment we have from the player staying I guess.

I don’t necessarily think so. We shouldn’t trade for a young players + picks package from the Knicks. We should go after another star like Lillard, Brown, Beal or reluctantly even someone like Simmons + Thybulle or Maxey.

 

[Ron Mexico]

What's that line from Billy Maddison where he receives zero points... this post is that.

Built around Don? Lol. Let's have zero perimeter defenders around him and have two ball dominant small guys as running mates. We got rid of Favors to give more space to Rudy by adding Bojan.

Yeah built around him...him being Rudy Gobert.

Rudy couldn't dominate Capella. Or Adams. Or Jokic. Or 6'3" guys from LA.

I'm so tired of the lazy excuse making Jazz fans who don't know basketball. This fanbase doesn't deserve Donovan Mitchell.

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No we got rid of Favors and added Bojan to give Mitchell more room work in, not Gobert. We brought in a veteran PG to let Mitchell play his more natural SG position that the team and Mitchell felt he was better at. You can create this false narrative in your head but it doesnt make it true. If we were building around Gobert we would have better defenders to help his strengths and have an elite defense. But we built around Mitchell and the offense, hoping Gobert could simply do his thing without any help from the other 4 positions. We gave Mitchell help so he wasnt our only offensive weapon. We gave him weapons to pass to and spread the court out so he wasnt double and triple teamed like we was earlier. The team has been pretty clear about catering to Mitchell.

Its sad that a person who supposedly watched those games thinks Gobert didnt dominate. You are still claiming Capella outplayed Gobert which is not true and proven many times.

Its a pretty bad look to call a bunch of passionate fans people who dont know basketball. It seems like maybe you have lost the argument at that point and just want to pretend you are more knowledgeable than everyone else for now reason.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Mitchell has been great in the pick and roll. Arguably one of the best in the NBA this year. He is also creating a lot for others, just as much as anyone in our system. He has done it as well as Conley this season. Ingles is a distant 3rd this year. Mitchell is slightly better at it this year, but even last year he was solid here.

Mitchell is bad at either position on defense. Its an effort thing that needs to change, especially in the playoffs. If it was just him it would hurt but not too much. But when its multiple people it kills us and is contagious. Having Clarkson come in and put next to no effort on defense and not even look to pass on offense kills us unless he is red hot. Mitchell needs to be the leader and step up and call others out. But I dont think he will do that for a long time in his career. He is too buddy buddy with everyone.

Almost all of his damage in PNR comes from his scoring.

 

[Ron Mexico]

We aren't that far off. It's ain't that hard -

Draft Herb Jones
Trade Clarkson for defense

That's literally all we had to do. We are a 30 win team before the all star break. That's good. However, we can't do **** in the playoffs unless we get some bulldog defender types.

Trade Clarkson for Smart if Boston takes that. Trade Conley for Smart before trading Bojan. We desperately need Bojan's spot up spacing and occasional postups.



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I agree we are not too far off. We can make some trades to improve. I think this team is coasting a lot and looking towards the playoffs. I am not sure we can turn it on last second though. Swapping out one offensive player for one bench defensive player isnt that big of a move that does much though.

Come playoffs we need every player on the court to play team defense with or without some "bulldog" defender. Its pretty easy to counter that defense. You switch that guy off the ball and get a bad defender matchup. Teams constantly try to switch onto players like Mitchell and Clarkson, especially in the playoffs.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Almost all of his damage in PNR comes from his scoring.

A lot of it does at an elite level. But he does pass out of it when that is what the defense gives. We arent really a team built around having one guy create a lot. We run those pick and rolls to score and if they double down too hard kick for open shots. Even Rubio wasnt really creating much for out team with this system. Most of Conley damage in the pick and roll comes on scoring. Conley is a great PG.

 

[LoPo]

No we got rid of Favors and added Bojan to give Mitchell more room work in, not Gobert. We brought in a veteran PG to let Mitchell play his more natural SG position that the team and Mitchell felt he was better at. You can create this false narrative in your head but it doesnt make it true. If we were building around Gobert we would have better defenders to help his strengths and have an elite defense. But we built around Mitchell and the offense, hoping Gobert could simply do his thing without any help from the other 4 positions. We gave Mitchell help so he wasnt our only offensive weapon. We gave him weapons to pass to and spread the court out so he wasnt double and triple teamed like we was earlier. The team has been pretty clear about catering to Mitchell.

Its sad that a person who supposedly watched those games thinks Gobert didnt dominate. You are still claiming Capella outplayed Gobert which is not true and proven many times.

Its a pretty bad look to call a bunch of passionate fans people who dont know basketball. It seems like maybe you have lost the argument at that point and just want to pretend you are more knowledgeable than everyone else for now reason.

Nothing you said proves we built around Don. Nothing. The team talked about spacing around Rudy and getting a stretch 4 before we even knew Don was All Star quality. The Favors Rudy dynamic was being questioned years ago. Remember how we tried to get Favors to develop a corner 3?

It's all built around Rudy. His screens on offense and the funnel on defense. You can't argue that.

When we struggled the 2nd time against Houston our front office wanted more offense and made the calculation that our defense would be fine because we had Rudy back there. They didn't go - hey, Don is a good scorer so let's go get more scorers. Your argument makes zero sense. It's just lazy.

Rudy did not get dominated by Capella. He actually outplayed Capella. But he didn't dominate him. Or Adams. Or even Valenciunus in the Memphis series.

I'm not trying to disrespect Jazz fans. I'm not. I'm just sick and tired of this defense mechanism about Rudy. Makes you guys blind. It's bizarre, and it's a problem. Yall get so attached to certain players and make every excuse for them.

Favors is a great example. I said years ago we should trade him and people crushed me. He didn't fit. We wasted time and resources forcing him to try to fit.

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[Ron Mexico]

Nothing you said proves we built around Don. Nothing. The team talked about spacing around Rudy and getting a stretch 4 before we even knew Don was All Star quality. The Favors Rudy dynamic was being questioned years ago. Remember how we tried to get Favors to develop a corner 3?

It's all built around Rudy. His screens on offense and the funnel on defense. You can't argue that.

When we struggled the 2nd time against Houston our front office wanted more offense and made the calculation that our defense would be fine because we had Rudy back there. They didn't go - hey, Don is a good scorer so let's go get more scorers. Your argument makes zero sense. It's just lazy.

Rudy did not get dominated by Capella. He actually outplayed Capella. But he didn't dominate him. Or Adams. Or even Valenciunus in the Memphis series.

I'm not trying to disrespect Jazz fans. I'm not. I'm just sick and tired of this defense mechanism about Rudy. Makes you guys blind. It's bizarre, and it's a problem. Yall get so attached to certain players and make every excuse for them.

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How does spacing help Gobert? Who benefits from more Spacing? Mitchell.

Our defensive strategy is built around our elite defender. That does not mean we built a team around him. That means we did the opposite and now have a problem where he is the only guy impacting us on defense. We built too much around helping Mitchell and the offense. Our offense is not built around Gobert. He is our best pick setter so he does that but he hardly gets touches and is ignored a lot. Our offense is built around Mitchell who dominates the ball and every piece we have brought in has been to help him on offense.

That is the opposite of what our FO expressed and the mouth pieces for the Jazz in the media. When we struggled in the playoffs to make open shots and Mitchell was being double and triple teamed kicking to wide open players who missed, our FO decided we need to give him more help on offense. We need more offensive weapons to take the load off him in the regular season and playoffs and we need more spacing for him to work in. He benefits the most from those players coming in. When we traded for Conley the team stated it was to help Mitchell, even if you dont believe them.

I think your hate for Rudy, that is well documented, is the one making you blind to him. Most people on here seem to know what Gobert is and know he has plenty of weakness's. You seem to have a narrative that you desperately try to force all the time. The fact that you compare one player and their matchup to his impact proves you are pretty blind to his impact on the game. If Gobert didnt dominate against those teams why is his net rating so great in those series? Why is pretty much every advanced stat showing he is ahead of anyone on the court? Maybe he is dominating in ways you dont seem to value.

 

[NUMBERICA]

I know this is impossible for some to believe, but the team is built around Donovan and Rudy. How can that be accomplished?

-stock up on plus shooters for every other rotation player
-leverage some defense for shooting since you have the greatest rim protector ever on the team and hope that other teams don't get hot jump shooting
-stock up on good decision-makers, efficient scorers, or low-volume guys

Rudy needs Donovan because Rudy can't do **** with a basketball and at a certain point you have to have guys that can get (difficult) shots off.
Donovan needs Rudy for a lot more reasons (the team's offense is predicated on screens and he is a mediocre iso player, Donovan is a putrid defender as is most of the team, Rudy creates a lot of gravity as a roll-man which opens up passing and driving lanes, Rudy is an elite great rebounder on both sides of the ball).

The summary is Donovan is great at turning recklessness into highlights and can go absolutely nuclear, but that style of play requires a lot of guard-rails and clean-up to work optimally. You need all of what they both do well, even if there's still some gaps and less synergy than any of us hope.

I'd rather trade neither, but I think the point made earlier that Donovan would net a larger return means if you had to trade one - from a pure asset management standpoint - Donovan makes more sense (if we're assuming they have equal value to this team, which obviously some find heinously offensive).

 

[Eastern Orthodoxy]

Rudy did not get dominated by Capella. He actually outplayed Capella. But he didn't dominate him. Or Adams. Or even Valenciunus in the Memphis series.

What you seem to mean by "dominate" means "score a lot of points."

Mitchell is the engine that makes our offense go. He also needs to play better defense and should definitely not be a point guard. He's not built for it.

Also, take away Gobert and we're Portland. Lillard definitely "dominates."

Makes you guys blind. It's bizarre, and it's a problem. Yall get so attached to certain players and make every excuse for them.

 

[Katastrofica]

What you seem to mean by "dominate" means "score a lot of points."

Mitchell is the engine that makes our offense go. He also needs to play better defense and should definitely not be a point guard. He's not built for it.

Also, take away Gobert and we're Portland. Lillard definitely "dominates."




View attachment 11608

Lol just wanna say that,whiteout rudy this team is portland.

 

[Katastrofica]

Lol just wanna say that,whiteout rudy this team is portland.

As I said before Don playing for himself not for team , he is not superstar and will never be one , but sadly he think he is. When he scores 40 and we lost the game he is happy and I'm not. For winning championship u need 100% effort from every guy in team on both ends. U will never see Don to play like that ,couse grind on def end u can't post on Instagram..

 

[LoPo]

As I said before Don playing for himself not for team , he is not superstar and will never be one , but sadly he think he is. When he scores 40 and we lost the game he is happy and I'm not. For winning championship u need 100% effort from every guy in team on both ends. U will never see Don to play like that ,couse grind on def end u can't post on Instagram..

Lol.

We were on a winning streak last season when Rudy came out and talked to the media about not getting enough touches on the offensive end. Don't preach about players wanting theirs. All these guys have drive and ego or they wouldn't be pros.

Please go watch a playoff game. Please. Don lays it all out there for the win for the team. In the playoffs, he plays as hard as anyone on the team. And he plays better than anyone on the team.

Sure without Rudy we are Portland. Without Don, we would get swept in the first round.

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[LoPo]

How does spacing help Gobert? Who benefits from more Spacing? Mitchell.

Our defensive strategy is built around our elite defender. That does not mean we built a team around him. That means we did the opposite and now have a problem where he is the only guy impacting us on defense. We built too much around helping Mitchell and the offense. Our offense is not built around Gobert. He is our best pick setter so he does that but he hardly gets touches and is ignored a lot. Our offense is built around Mitchell who dominates the ball and every piece we have brought in has been to help him on offense.

That is the opposite of what our FO expressed and the mouth pieces for the Jazz in the media. When we struggled in the playoffs to make open shots and Mitchell was being double and triple teamed kicking to wide open players who missed, our FO decided we need to give him more help on offense. We need more offensive weapons to take the load off him in the regular season and playoffs and we need more spacing for him to work in. He benefits the most from those players coming in. When we traded for Conley the team stated it was to help Mitchell, even if you dont believe them.

I think your hate for Rudy, that is well documented, is the one making you blind to him. Most people on here seem to know what Gobert is and know he has plenty of weakness's. You seem to have a narrative that you desperately try to force all the time. The fact that you compare one player and their matchup to his impact proves you are pretty blind to his impact on the game. If Gobert didnt dominate against those teams why is his net rating so great in those series? Why is pretty much every advanced stat showing he is ahead of anyone on the court? Maybe he is dominating in ways you dont seem to value.

We run the defense around Rudy - FACT
We run the offense around Rudy's screens - FACT

Bojan wasn't brought in for Don. Due to Rudy's offensive limitations, we could not play Favors and Rudy together anymore. We had Favors and Rudy questions before Don was even around. The SG, whether it be Donovan Mitchell or Ronnie Brewer, and the entire team needed the spacing that was clogged by Rudy and Favors. Bojan was brought in because it just made basketball sense.

Clarkson wasn't added or kept for Donovan or Rudy. He clearly takes the ball out of everybody's hands.

Butler - how does drafting Butler instead of a defensive wing help Don if Don is so ball dominant?

Whiteside, Bradley, and Doke were added to be Rudy whenever Rudy was out because everything we do is built around a Rudy.

Conley was a ball dominant PG - if Don is so ball dominant, why not go get Jrue Holiday who doesn't need the ball but is elite at defense? Or go get Brogdon or Lonzo who are similar? Or better yet, go get Donovan's good buddy Chris Paul. Adding Conley was just adding a good player to help everybody. He wasn't added "for Donovan." He was added for Utah.

It's not a bad thing that we built around Rudy. It's his prime right now. It was worth a shot. We should have put more emphasis on perimeter defense, but we absolutely did not "build around Donovan".

 

[Ron Mexico]

We run the defense around Rudy - FACT
We run the offense around Rudy's screens - FACT

Bojan wasn't brought in for Don. Due to Rudy's offensive limitations, we could not play Favors and Rudy together anymore. We had Favors and Rudy questions before Don was even around. The SG, whether it be Donovan Mitchell or Ronnie Brewer, and the entire team needed the spacing that was clogged by Rudy and Favors. Bojan was brought in because it just made basketball sense.

Clarkson wasn't added or kept for Donovan or Rudy. He clearly takes the ball out of everybody's hands.

Butler - how does drafting Butler instead of a defensive wing help Don if Don is so ball dominant?

Whiteside, Bradley, and Doke were added to be Rudy whenever Rudy was out because everything we do is built around a Rudy.

Conley was a ball dominant PG - if Don is so ball dominant, why not go get Jrue Holiday who doesn't need the ball but is elite at defense? Or go get Brogdon or Lonzo who are similar? Or better yet, go get Donovan's good buddy Chris Paul. Adding Conley was just adding a good player to help everybody. He wasn't added "for Donovan." He was added for Utah.

It's not a bad thing that we built around Rudy. It's his prime right now. It was worth a shot. We should have put more emphasis on perimeter defense, but we absolutely did not "build around Donovan".

I almost made it past the first two sentences with a straight face. I didn't read the rest, but I'm sure it's funny stuff as well.

 

[LogGrad98]

Bojan and Clarkson were both brought in to add firepower, that was about it. I do not think there was any master-plan on how to maximize Mitchell, so let's go get specific guys to fill specific gaps or fit specific schemes or whatever. Bojan was a scoring forward that could hit the 3. Clarkson was a sparkplug who could (and did) provide a scoring punch off the bench and help us when Mitchell might be out. The Jazz were re-tooling to emphasize the offense that Quin wanted to run, so they needed guys that could hit the 3 and score in bunches.

In light of this it is even more confusing that they chased Conley so hard. I mean he is hitting the 3 at the highest percentages of his career now, but from his history up to the point we went after him he was an ok 3-pt shooter, not lights out by any stretch, and perennial border-line all-star, but that was about it. He didn't really fit what we needed, and frankly still doesn't. Mind-boggling still why we brought him in. I guess because he is a nice guy and the Jazz Way is to have a True Point Guard and Good Citizen in that role, not some combo guard that might be a better defender and bigger body? Who knows.

 

[LoPo]

Bojan and Clarkson were both brought in to add firepower, that was about it. I do not think there was any master-plan on how to maximize Mitchell, so let's go get specific guys to fill specific gaps or fit specific schemes or whatever. Bojan was a scoring forward that could hit the 3. Clarkson was a sparkplug who could (and did) provide a scoring punch off the bench and help us when Mitchell might be out. The Jazz were re-tooling to emphasize the offense that Quin wanted to run, so they needed guys that could hit the 3 and score in bunches.

In light of this it is even more confusing that they chased Conley so hard. I mean he is hitting the 3 at the highest percentages of his career now, but from his history up to the point we went after him he was an ok 3-pt shooter, not lights out by any stretch, and perennial border-line all-star, but that was about it. He didn't really fit what we needed, and frankly still doesn't. Mind-boggling still why we brought him in. I guess because he is a nice guy and the Jazz Way is to have a True Point Guard and Good Citizen in that role, not some combo guard that might be a better defender and bigger body? Who knows.

I agree 100%.

Bojan and Clarkson were just basketball moves. Logical. We needed a 4 who could spread the floor while Exum had to leave.

The Conley deal will always confuse me.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Lopo is so obsessed with this stupid concept of who they built around, Gobert or Mitchell. It's ****ing pathetic and he only does it to put additional blame on Gobert and deflect off Mitchell.

They built around the 3pt shot you idiots. Not a player. They built around Gobert's screening to create 3's as much as they built around Mitchell PNR ability to shoot 3pt off ball screens or drive and create a 3 off the drive. Mitchell and Gobert are incredibly symbiotic. In reality building around either player likely results in extremely similar decisions (unless you think building around just means enhancing that players stats as much as possible, not winning as much as possible).

There is almost no thought from the Jazz when it comes to roster construction other than shooting a ton of 3's and being really good at them while also having a lot of ball-handlers on court. If they were "building around Gobert" they would actually coach the team to hit him when he deep seals at 6'5 player. Or they would put additional defenders on the court to enhance his best defensive abilities. Gobert is just much better than Mitchell at what he does and is way harder to replace, so Utah struggles more when he is out.

Conley exist as much for Mitchell as he does Gobert. Jazz need a PG who will actually hit Gobert when they run PNR and Jazz need a smarter guard next to Mitchell to actually playmake for others and orchestrate smart offense. The idea that Conley is a bad fit with Mitchell is ****ing stupid. They are the best offense in the NBA by a country mile for a reason.

 

[Chargers Jazz Angels]

I would guess some draft picks would be included maybe 2 to 3 firsts. to the Jazz 1 from Toronto and 2 from the Knicks. (Toronto is a big maybe)


http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yb5qdelc

This is only if DM has made it known he wants to leave for a bigger market.

I am a huge RJ Barrett fan and feel he will be a very good player. I love Cam Reddish. But Figure Toronto would be willing to give up some assets to get Barrett the hometown boy.
Think Miles McBride is an upgrade to Forrest
I think Samanic is on the cusp of a breakout season.
Jazz save 2.6 million (7.8 savings with Luxury tax)

Jazz

Conley, Butler, McBride
O'Neale, Reddish, House
Bogdanovich, Ingles. Wantanabe
Siakam, Gay,
Gobert, Whitesides, Samanic