Transgender and sports

[One Brow]

That would be silly. The open division accepts everyone regardless of genetics. Verification of some sort would only be needed for those competing in restricted divisions. If you had a kid in club sports you'd know they do that now. For my kid to eligible to compete in the 10U division I had to provide proof of age. Genetic tests for gender only aren't any more expensive than tests for banned substances and athletes have to take many of those throughout the season. Testing for compliance in sport is not the least bit unusual.

So far, you haven't named a single time you cared about Ivy League women's swimming before Lia Thomas became news, you just let that drop. You haven't acknowledged you were wrong about NCAA records. You haven't mentioned how women's Ivy League sports would be destroyed. You haven't mentioned that trans women on hormone therapy lose most of their advantages from their birth gender.

Women's sports are not "restricted divisions"; they are segregated for social reasons. You're just trying to rationalize a decision based on hate.

 

[gandalfe]

People with higher levels of testosterone tend to have more muscle mass, but we don't create separate events based on te3stoserone levels, level of strength, height, etc., except when we do (boxing weight classes, etc.).

We have separate male/female sporting events for the same reason we have separate male/female bathrooms: to avoid close contact between men and women. It's not because of the size of the poo pieces.


That does nothing to alter the social distinction between men and women that led to the creation of separate events.

Yeah, it's kind of the current myth of the right on this subject that we did it to protect the poor, frail females so that they could win, but not REALLY win, it's just basically a participation trophy because we know that ANY man could beat ANY woman in ANY sport.

In reality, it's because we didn't want women to be getting sweaty with men they didn't belong to - sorry, that they weren't married to. Instead, we have the big strong men in peak physical condition getting sweaty with each other.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

We have separate male/female sporting events for the same reason we have separate male/female bathrooms: to avoid close contact between men and women.

In reality, it's because we didn't want women to be getting sweaty with men they didn't belong to

It is funny you'd say that, not just because it is hilariously untrue, but because a collaboration of transgender advocates just put out a messaging guide for how to advance transgender rights and in it on the topic of transgender participation in sports they admitted their supporters were low information people. It appears the Transgender Law Center, ASO Communications, and Lake Research Partners knew what they were talking about.

Focus, Polling Groups: Trans Activists are Losing; Supporters of Trans Sports Arguments are Low-Information

The Transgender Law Center published research from polling and focus groups, and suggested strategies for furthering progress toward the gender identity cause. The most interesting revelation in th…

www.womenarehuman.com

I respect that you want to champion this widely unpopular cause. If you could tie together support for Biden along with support for biological males competing in women's sport I think it may get you over the hump. Go baby go-go! Maybe you could even add in support for Biden's head of the CDC calling for the banning of all High School sports in addition to any extracurricular activities "in which increased exhalation occurs, such as activities that involve singing, shouting, band, or exercise".

 

[One Brow]

It is funny you'd say that, not just because it is hilariously untrue,

It's quite easy to demonstrate. There are several high school athletics events where the performances are individual but the event is awarded to a team overall (cross-country, wrestling, swimming, track and field, etc.). If the sole intent were to stop males from competing against females, then there would be one giant team with segregated events. Instead, there are always two separate teams, that have separate schedules and rarely perform at the same time in the same place. This is done because the intent is that the genders do not compete in the same meet.

but because a collaboration of transgender advocates

The author of that piece is Diana Shaw. She is an anti-trans writer.

Diana Shaw is founder, editor and writer at Women Are Human. Her goal in starting this work in 2017 was to raise the gender public's awareness of the gender identity movement, and provide resources to make it easy for the general public to take political, financial and social counteraction.

I really wonder how ignorant you have to be to look at that website and think the authors are trans advocates.

I respect that you want to champion this widely unpopular cause.

Yes, I champion the rights of women to be women. Yes, I note that you think allowing women to be women, and men to be men, is widely unpopular.

So far, you haven't named a single time you cared about Ivy League women's swimming before Lia Thomas became news, you just let that drop. You haven't acknowledged you were wrong about NCAA records. You haven't mentioned how women's Ivy League sports would be destroyed. You haven't mentioned that trans women on hormone therapy lose most of their sports advantages from their birth gender. I'm sure you'll also let your presentation of a TERF publication as "transgender advocates" also drop, and come up with new lies in your response. The funny thing is that you probably think you're making good points. All you're doing is expressing that you have so much hate your vision is completely clouded.

 

[LogGrad98]

So far, you haven't named a single time you cared about Ivy League women's swimming before Lia Thomas became news, you just let that drop. You haven't acknowledged you were wrong about NCAA records. You haven't mentioned how women's Ivy League sports would be destroyed. You haven't mentioned that trans women on hormone therapy lose most of their advantages from their birth gender.

Women's sports are not "restricted divisions"; they are segregated for social reasons. You're just trying to rationalize a decision based on hate.

Would you support simply abolishing "women's" and "men's" sports and combining all sports in all cases? So just have a baseball team, and not a women's or men's. Same with basketball, track and field, weight lifting, what have you. Assuming we can figure out the locker-room scenarios. And why, whether yes or no?

 

[Al-O-Meter]

If the sole intent were to stop males from competing against females, then there would be one giant team with segregated events. Instead, there are always two separate teams, that have separate schedules and rarely perform at the same time in the same place. This is done because the intent is that the genders do not compete in the same meet.

No, it is done to make better use of resources. For instance, there is a limited amount of swimming pool time so they make boys water polo a fall sport, girls water polo a winter sport, but because you can pack multiple swimmers per lane in practice they do both boys and girls swimming (and boys diving and girls diving) all as spring sports. The same general idea goes for competitions. It is a better use of limited resources to divide kids into groups and stagger things, but the elite level of kids are all in the pool together during practices. For sports where athletes don't need as much space or equipment such as marathons, 10k runs, etc. they usually run men and women at the exact same time but still award them in different categories.

The author of that piece is Diana Shaw.

The authors of the messaging guide Diana Shaw summed up were trans advocates. Diana Shaw included a link to the trans advocacy document.

I note that you think allowing women to be women, and men to be men, is widely unpopular.

That isn't what is unpopular. What is unpopular is allowing biological males to compete in women's sports. I couldn't care less what clothes Thomas wants to wear but Thomas shouldn't be taking a spot on the women's swim team away from a biological woman.

 

[Scat]

People with higher levels of testosterone tend to have more muscle mass, but we don't create separate events based on te3stoserone levels, level of strength, height, etc., except when we do (boxing weight classes, etc.).

But they do test for testosterone levels and if they are too high athletes are disqualified.

 

[One Brow]

Would you support simply abolishing "women's" and "men's" sports and combining all sports in all cases? So just have a baseball team, and not a women's or men's. Same with basketball, track and field, weight lifting, what have you. Assuming we can figure out the locker-room scenarios. And why, whether yes or no?

Honestly, I don't care that much. It goes back to what we are trying to accomplish by having sports teams in the first place, and finding a structure that best fits those goals. There is a lot of tension between the positions "we need a separate league for women/girls" and "sports is about figuring out who is the best athlete".

 

[One Brow]

No, it is done to make better use of resources. For instance, there is a limited amount of swimming pool time so they make boys water polo a fall sport, girls water polo a winter sport, but because you can pack multiple swimmers per lane in practice they do both boys and girls swimming (and boys diving and girls diving) all as spring sports. The same general idea goes for competitions. It is a better use of limited resources to divide kids into groups and stagger things, but the elite level of kids are all in the pool together.

That's a lot of verbiage to completely dodge my point about how high school teams operate in the real world. Was it really that hard to address directly?

For sports where athletes don't need as much space or equipment such as marathons, 10k runs, etc. they usually run men and women at the exact same time but still award them in different categories.

Could you list some of the high schools where the boy's marathon team runs all there meets with the girl's marathon team, or the boy's 10K is at the same meets as the girls 10K? No? So, this is just another irrelevant distraction?

The authors of the messaging guide Diana Shaw summed up were trans advocates. Diana Shaw included a link to the trans advocacy document.

However, *you* didn't link to the actual document, instead you linked to a bias misrepresentation of what the document said, and that's what I responded to.

That isn't what is unpopular. What is unpopular is allowing biological males to compete in women's sports.

Please. This talk about sports is a symptom of a much deeper hatred and fear.

I couldn't care less what clothes Thomas wants to wear but Thomas shouldn't be taking a spot on the women's swim team away from a biological woman.

Why shouldn't a woman take a spot from another woman?

So far, you haven't named a single time you cared about Ivy League women's swimming before Lia Thomas became news, you just let that drop. You haven't acknowledged you were wrong about NCAA records. You haven't mentioned how women's Ivy League sports would be destroyed. You haven't mentioned that trans women on hormone therapy lose most of their sports advantages from their birth gender. I was correct that you let your presentation of a TERF publication as "transgender advocates" also drop, and you came up with new lies in your response. The funny thing is that you probably think you're making good points. All you're doing is expressing that you have so much hate your vision is completely clouded.

 

[One Brow]

But they do test for testosterone levels and if they are too high athletes are disqualified.

This is true. How do you feel about that? Do we need separate sporting events for women with high testosterone and women with low testosterone? Or, does it only matter based on how they were assigned at birth? How about for men?

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Could you list some of the high schools where the boy's marathon team runs all there meets with the girl's marathon team, or the boy's 10K is at the same meets as the girls 10K?

Marathons and 10K runs aren't High School sports but absolutely the boys' and girls' track teams compete at the same meets. Did you do absolutely no sports growing up? Do you not know any kids who are currently doing sports? Here is the schedule for a single High School Track & Field meet in Utah:

https://www.uhsaa.org/track/State%20Track%202021%20Schedules.pdf

 

[Scat]

This is true. How do you feel about that? Do we need separate sporting events for women with high testosterone and women with low testosterone? Or, does it only matter based on how they were assigned at birth? How about for men?

I have no problem with the testing. And no, I don't feel there should be different levels of events based on testosterone levels. Technically a male or female could take testosterone if they were naturally below the threshold allowed by the testing standards and not be considered in violation. I also believe that transgendered females, even on HRT, do have certain advantages over most cis females regarding sports.