Transgender and sports

[Gameface]

I'm going to re-summarize my position on this topic.

First, I'm not confident in my position on this topic. I have a position but I question it.

I think that in public school K-12 sports there should be relatively open options for transgender kids to participate in sports as the gender they identify as. Possibly there should be a grace period between when transition started and when you can begin playing as your identified gender.

Sports at this level should be more about education, growth, learning, etc. than about competing. I know we have turned high school sports into something more than that, but I think that's a mistake. I'll add a few more thoughts regarding scholarships further down.

I think college sports should be more discriminating and have higher standards for who can participate as a transgender athlete. I don't know exactly what criteria should be considered. I'd leave that up to the colleges and the people involved in the individual sports. I consider college sports as just as professional as minor league baseball and the G League. I think athletes should be paid, should be able to have sponsorships, etc.. I wouldn't object to colleges or specific college sports not offering scholarships to trans athletes. However, if college sports wants to stick with the full on BS of student-athletes then I think they should be forced to use Public School guidelines, especially if they are a state funded school.

Pro Sports is a commercial enterprise all the way, They should be able to establish whatever rules they want for their business.

Olympics, world record eligible competitions should figure out how to establish guidelines for trans athletes. I'm honestly not comfortable with the idea of cisgender world records being replaced by trans women's accomplishments.

I think this allows for a few things. First, that for younger trans people they might benefit from sports the way that anyone does, and learn about sportsmanship, teamwork, competition, working toward goals both personal and group, how to win and lose and move forward. I don't think it is acceptable to deny these learning opportunities from trans people either by forcing them to compete as a gender they don't identify as (of the dozen or so trans youth I've met over the last several years, they simply will not participate if that's the case) or just deny them participation in this educational activity altogether.

By allowing colleges to set conditions on scholarships you remove any incentive for a fraudster to compete as a trans person when they are not. By setting conditions on world records and olympic participation you remove any incentive for a person to fraudulently participate as if they are trans. By allowing pro sports to set their own standards on the issue you potentially eliminate the possibility of people pretending to be trans so that they can be a pro female athlete. You might also prevent actual trans people from these things, and since all you nice folks insist that you don't think trans people are faking their gender identity this should make you the most happy... denying trans people from ****ing up your female sports that you have all always cared so much about.

 

[One Brow]

What you meant to say is "how many people would have heard of kobe with no pro basketball?" Well none. But see with pro basketball you would still have heard of kobe but not lisa leslie. Lisa leslie needed a seperate womens league to be heard of. Why is that?

Why do you think this is relevant? Why does this mean that sports leagues can't decide for themselves who should qualify to play in them?

Seems like a great opportunity for the women to prove something as well.

What do they need to prove?

 

[One Brow]

I'm going to re-summarize my position on this topic.

Eminently reasonable, and not nearly sexist enough for some people.

 

[Gameface]

Eminently reasonable, and not nearly sexist enough for some people.

I think I should say that since I haven't met a trans person who was interested in athletics, but I have met several who just want to live and not be murdered or assaulted or denied participation in society in general, I don't value trans people's participation in sports as highly as I do those other things. I might be missing a lot. I might be trading the value sports participation of trans athletes for the value of trans people being murdered less often, but that's how I got to where I'm at.

I have mentioned before that as the parent of a transgender child my fear of my child being violently murdered for who they are is significant. I literally began to cry as I wrote that. It is a very real fear of mine and I'd like for that possibility to be less likely.

The trans friends of my child are all kind, thoughtful and largely isolated people. I wouldn't describe a single one of them as being an activist. Not a single one. They are not charging into Target and making a point of peeing in the bathroom of the gender they identify as. They are not berating the waiter who misgendered them. They are trying to live. I want them to live.

 

[fishonjazz]

Why do you think this is relevant? Why does this mean that sports leagues can't decide for themselves who should qualify to play in them?


What do they need to prove?

It was relevant to a conversation that was being had that you weren't involved in.
I didn't say they need to prove anything.

 

[Ron Mexico]

I think I should say that since I haven't met a trans person who was interested in athletics, but I have met several who just want to live and not be murdered or assaulted or denied participation in society in general, I don't value trans people's participation in sports as highly as I do those other things. I might be missing a lot. I might be trading the value sports participation of trans athletes for the value of trans people being murdered less often, but that's how I got to where I'm at.

I have mentioned before that as the parent of a transgender child my fear of my child being violently murdered for who they are is significant. I literally began to cry as I wrote that. It is a very real fear of mine and I'd like for that possibility to be less likely.

The trans friends of my child are all kind, thoughtful and largely isolated people. I wouldn't describe a single one of them as being an activist. Not a single one. They are not charging into Target and making a point of peeing in the bathroom of the gender they identify as. They are not berating the waiter who misgendered them. They are trying to live. I want them to live.

I think allowing trans kids to participate in sports will go along ways towards helping them be more accepted by their peers. I think that goes a long way towards not having violence committed towards them. That is far more important than who wins at some HS sporting event, even beyond. People are really uncomfortable around trans people and its a big deal, people are not kind to people and situations that make them uncomfortable. Plus people, especially males are very homophobic. Making friends or at least getting to know someone who is trans should change lots of people minds.

 

[One Brow]

I think I should say that since I haven't met a trans person who was interested in athletics, but I have met several who just want to live and not be murdered or assaulted or denied participation in society in general, I don't value trans people's participation in sports as highly as I do those other things. I might be missing a lot. I might be trading the value sports participation of trans athletes for the value of trans people being murdered less often, but that's how I got to where I'm at.

I have mentioned before that as the parent of a transgender child my fear of my child being violently murdered for who they are is significant. I literally began to cry as I wrote that. It is a very real fear of mine and I'd like for that possibility to be less likely.

The trans friends of my child are all kind, thoughtful and largely isolated people. I wouldn't describe a single one of them as being an activist. Not a single one. They are not charging into Target and making a point of peeing in the bathroom of the gender they identify as. They are not berating the waiter who misgendered them. They are trying to live. I want them to live.

The visibility of important role models is a key for public acceptance. Outside of that, I agree.

 

[One Brow]

It was relevant to a conversation that was being had that you weren't involved in.

I agree it was relevant to the comparison of cis men and cis women, which is not relevant to the topic of this thread. I'm still unsure why you think sports leagues can't be trusted to make their own rules.

 

[fishonjazz]

I agree it was relevant to the comparison of cis men and cis women, which is not relevant to the topic of this thread. I'm still unsure why you think sports leagues can't be trusted to make their own rules.

I dont think I ever made the statement "I dont think sports leagues can be trusted to make their own rules"

 

[Keefe]

I think allowing trans kids to participate in sports will go along ways towards helping them be more accepted by their peers. I think that goes a long way towards not having violence committed towards them. That is far more important than who wins at some HS sporting event, even beyond. People are really uncomfortable around trans people and its a big deal, people are not kind to people and situations that make them uncomfortable. Plus people, especially males are very homophobic. Making friends or at least getting to know someone who is trans should change lots of people minds.

I agree with most of this but when it comes to competition I just don’t. If I’m a woman and I busted my *** my entire life to be the best in the world at my sport and then have someone who’s transitioned not only beat me but shatter records, I’d be a little more than livid about it.

That said, I completely get your sentiment. Admittedly, I thought it would be weird for me when I had a trans student last year. I was told the day before school started that I was going to have one. And again, I thought it could be awkward. More overthinking **** on my end than anything. But it wasn’t weird at all. I actually loved the girl and she was extremely enjoyable to talk to. She seemed to fit in well too. There was no hateful comments or anything like that. Though we were hybrid and she was in a class in person with only like eight people in it.

 

[gandalfe]

I agree with most of this but when it comes to competition I just don’t. If I’m a woman and I busted my *** my entire life to be the best in the world at my sport and then have someone who’s transitioned not only beat me but shatter records, I’d be a little more than livid about it.

Why is this ONE thing the one that would upset you? Do you think that people from the Netherlands should be allowed to compete against the Laotians? They're naturally taller and stronger, on average (6'0" vs 5'4" for men, 5'7" vs 5'0" for women).

 

[Keefe]

Why is this ONE thing the one that would upset you? Do you think that people from the Netherlands should be allowed to compete against the Laotians? They're naturally taller and stronger, on average (6'0" vs 5'4" for men, 5'7" vs 5'0" for women).

You’re picking the two extreme ends of the spectrum. That said, height in and of itself does not always provide a huge advantage in sports. It can help but being shorter does not necessarily prevent one from excelling in sports. What we are talking about though with transitioning from male to female is an obvious unfair advantage. Or maybe said athletes breaking records and all of a sudden going from nobodies in their sports to elite is just a coincidence. And ftr, I get angry at just about anything.

 

[One Brow]

I dont think I ever made the statement "I dont think sports leagues can be trusted to make their own rules"

Yet, you've been busy talking about how trans women shouldn't compete with cis women, even though leagues have rules to cover when trans women qualify. It can't both be true that you trust the leagues to make the rules and that you think they are doing it wrong.

 

[One Brow]

I agree with most of this but when it comes to competition I just don’t. If I’m a woman and I busted my *** my entire life to be the best in the world at my sport and then have someone who’s transitioned not only beat me but shatter records, I’d be a little more than livid about it.

So far, that has not happened. Is there a single world record owned by a trans person? I've been looking, and haven't found one. So, instead of worrying about the laser beams from Mars, how about some thought for the people that face threats of violence on a regular basis?

 

[One Brow]

Or maybe said athletes breaking records and all of a sudden going from nobodies in their sports to elite is just a coincidence.

Actually, it's fictional. For example, Thomas was already the second best swimmer in the men's Ivy League as a freshmen for lengths 500y-2000y. If she had not transitioned, she'd be dominating men's Ivy League swimming instead of women's Ivy League swimming.

 

[fishonjazz]

Yet, you've been busy talking about how trans women shouldn't compete with cis women, even though leagues have rules to cover when trans women qualify. It can't both be true that you trust the leagues to make the rules and that you think they are doing it wrong.

Of course it can silly. I totally think leagues can be trusted to make their own rules even if I dont agree with those rules. All kinds of organizations make rules that I dont agree with.

 

[Keefe]

So far, that has not happened. Is there a single world record owned by a trans person? I've been looking, and haven't found one. So, instead of worrying about the laser beams from Mars, how about some thought for the people that face threats of violence on a regular basis?

Michael Phelps: NCAA’s Lia Thomas issue shows need for level playing field

Michael Phelps says the controversy surrounding transgender NCAA swimmer Lia Thomas is “very complicated.”

www.google.com

 

[Keefe]

Actually, it's fictional. For example, Thomas was already the second best swimmer in the men's Ivy League as a freshmen for lengths 500y-2000y. If she had not transitioned, she'd be dominating men's Ivy League swimming instead of women's Ivy League swimming.

Big difference between being the best in the mediocre Ivy League to now having a real chance at breaking all-time National Female Collegiate Records.

 

[One Brow]

Michael Phelps: NCAA’s Lia Thomas issue shows need for level playing field

Michael Phelps says the controversy surrounding transgender NCAA swimmer Lia Thomas is “very complicated.”

www.google.com

The article says she might compete for records. Her best time on the 50y is 5 seconds to slow, and the 200 about 10s too slow. So, she's competing for maybe one record (still a few seconds off the 100y), and maybe not (her times have ben going down this season). Either way, there are still 0, that is, none, nada, zip world records held by trans people.

Big difference between being the best in the mediocre Ivy League to now having a real chance at breaking all-time National Female Collegiate Records.

That's exactly what i have been saying! I completely agree, and Thomas is obviously a case of the former and not the latter.

But, by all means, be terrified.

 

[One Brow]

I do trust them. USA Swimming, the governing organization and an organization for which I am a coach, came out and effectively banned biological males from competing against women if they went through puberty as a male because the ignorant nonsense you've been spouting for the last couple weeks is stupid.

Good for them, if that was their decision, and I support their right to make such a decision. However, you seem to have lied about the contents of their ruling. This is from the article you linked to:

In part, here is what USA Swimming decided in its new Athlete Inclusion, Competitive Equity and Eligibility Policy.

The elite athlete policy will be implemented by a decision-making panel comprised of three independent medical experts and eligibility criteria will consist of:

• Evidence that the prior physical development of the athlete as a male, as mitigated by any medical intervention, does not give the athlete a competitive advantage over the athlete’s cisgender female competitors.

• Evidence that the concentration of testosterone in the athlete’s serum has been less than 5 nmol/L (as measured by liquid chromatography coupled with mass spectrometry) continuously for a period of at least thirty-six (36) months before the date of application.

I went to the website on Athlete Inclusion, Competitive Equity, and Eligibility Policy. It leads to 8 links, Puberty is mentioned in exactly once in each of those 8 links, and it only refers to minor athletes. It is a lie that this policy bans trans people who went through puberty as males, effectively or otherwise.

It appears that you are as uninformed on the new rules as you were on everything else in this controversy.

Since we were discussing NCAA swimming, which new rules would those be in NCAA swimming?

Unlike NCAA and Its Cowardly Approach, USA Swimming Demonstrated Leadership With New Transgender Policy

By adopting a new transgender policy that protects fairness for biological females, USA Swimming demonstrated guts and leadership.

www.swimmingworldmagazine.com

Let's look at these new rules, Mr. USA Swimming Coach.

https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/governance/governance-lsc-website/rules_policies/usa-swimming-policy-19.pdf

Male-to-Female Transition Athletes who have transitioned, or are transitioning, from a Male biological gender assignment at birth to a Female gender assignment must, before being declared eligible to compete in the Female competition category:
(a) Satisfy the Self-Identity Verification set forth in Paragraph 5 below.
(b) Satisfy the conditions set forth in Paragraph 6 below, “Elite Event Fairness Conditions” if the athlete:
i. Has achieved “Elite Athlete” status as defined in Paragraph 4(c) below;
ii. Desires to compete in an “Elite Event” as defined in Paragraph 4(c) below; and/or
iii. Desires to have a competitive time recognized by USA Swimming as an American Record.
(c) “Elite Athletes” and “Elite Events”. For purposes of this Policy, “Elite Athletes” shall include any athlete who has achieved a USA Swimming Junior National time standard and desires to participate in any of the following “Elite Events” defined for purposes of this Policy as: any United States Olympic and Paralympic Committee (“USOPC”) Delegation Event and/or Protected Competition as 42 defined in the USOPC Bylaws; Fédération Internationale de Natation (“FINA”) Events; PanPacific Championships; World University Games; USA Swimming Nationals, Junior Nationals, U.S. Open, International Team Trials, U.S. Olympic Team Trials - Swimming; and/or any other competition designated by USA Swimming as an “Elite Event” and any other event which conditions entry on meeting the USA Swimming Junior National Time Standard or faster. For purposes of this Policy, Elite Events shall also include any other competition in which a qualifying time standard is achieved for entry into the other Elite Events described above or to be eligible to set an American or National Age-Group Record at the 13-14 level or above.

I notice that there are no NCAA events included in the list of "Elite Events". Further, I notice that *only* the Elite events have restrictions. Trans women would be welcome to compete at any non-Elite Event (much like Lia Thomas is swimming in the Ivy League, not the truly competitive swimming leagues).

Mr. USA Swimming Coach, I suggest you read your own rules more carefully.