I'm just saying it was a good thing for you to acknowledge your error. You don't like being recognized for maturity?
Transgender and sports
- Thread starter Beer
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Yet, evidence proves otherwise. Thomas produced some decent performances, but in no way stood out from other people in the competition. That's completely fair.
You can make bigots feel accepted and they can be; but there are a few lines that have to be drawn. This is one of them.
No, the opinions that matter are the members of the governing body, in this case, the NCAA.
Yet I persevere in trying to teach it.
You just can't produce any rational support for your opinion without dipping into transphobia. I mean, it's not as if you havven't put your own transphobia on clear display in here when discussing your dating life. Who are you trying to kid?
There only objection is based on her circumstances of birth. They have no other objection that Thomas being trans.
I am.
Cheating requires breaking the rules. What rules do you think Thomas is breaking?
Assigning moral fault to a circumstance of birth is the exact behavior of a bigot.
In other words, your opinion is unpopular.
I always prefer my bigotry on open display.
fishonjazz
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Thank you for carrying on
You are most welcome, sir!
Archie Moses
Well-Known Member
Apparently, I'm transphobic because I won't date trans. One_Brow's logic. Dude is special.
gandalfe
Well-Known Member
I must be a misanthrope, then, because I won't date anyone. My wife wouldn't approve.
Wait. I am misanthropic. Yup, checks out.
If you refuse to date a person you find attractive because they are black, or Catholic, or trans, then you are anti-black, anti-Catholic, or anti-trans to some degree. Note the importance of "you find attractive" in that statement. In the date you described, you didn't find that person attractive, and that's fine. We like what we like.
The part I'm calling you out about is how you felt justified in acting like a total jerk because you suspected the person was trans, and acted in a way you acknowledge you wouldn't have treated an unattractive person you thought of as a cis woman. That differential treatment based on being trans, and therefore anti-trans behavior.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
75,000 student athletes… 4 are trans in Utah. A rate of .00005 percent. How much of this past session and upcoming special session has been devoted to this nonissue?
This MFer wasn't even my favorite in the Republican primary but he has really won me over by being a decent human. I might go out and rally for this guy at this point.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
Good post.
At the end of all of this, I hope those posting anti trans posts today meet a trans person soon. I understand that people can have nuanced views on sports. That’s fine, whatever. But at the end of the day, we’re still talking about people. We’re talking about children who are already dealing with the cards stacked against them. They’re students at risk of dropping out, going homeless, and losing their lives.
Literally all the trans students I’ve met have dealt with anxiety, depression, and parents/religious leaders rejecting them. Not a single one has “had it easy.” Not a single one that I’ve met has wanted to stand out. They’ve wanted to blend in which is why they typically keep to themselves and find support in LGBT friendly clubs and groups.
I think a lot of this debate would be resolved if people would just meet some of these students. Unfortunately, (let’s be honest) Republicans are using trans issues as a proxy war for their real war, the culture wars, and believe it is to their political gain to demagogue this issue. They want to prove to their base that they are more extreme than potential primary opponents. They want to catapult their political careers on the bones of trans students. Their party wants to use trans fear combined with CRT to win the midterms.
It’s despicable.
At the end of the day these trans student athletes are human beings. I hope we keep that in mind. I’m glad Gov Cox is. I don’t always agree with him but he’s a decent person. I’ll vote to re-elect when his first term is up. It’s too bad the legislature doesn’t care. Now they need a special session because schools and athletic associations are going to be litigated to hell. Your tax dollars wasted away all so some jackass can appear “tough” on those most vulnerable.
Care about women sports? Fund the **** out of them. How many of these folks concerned with trans student athletes ruining sports can name 5 female student athletes? The answer to that question might be quite telling on how much these folks actually care about women’s sports…
Great post.
As I've said, I've had the opportunity to meet some (around 6) transgender teens or young adults. I've said it before but none of them are trying to disrupt the lives of anyone else at all. None of them make it a point to be in public and be seen and acknowledged. None of them are trying to make other people uncomfortable. They are shy, they are reserved, they are also scared. They aren't antagonizing people in public. They would never do that because they might be violently assaulted if they did. They are aware of this.
Trans women want desperately to exist in public as women. They don't want to exist as trans women, they want to exist as women and go relatively unnoticed.
I've said before that I wish this trans athlete movement would back off (I didn't say it that way) because this is a losing subject for the trans community. I feel strongly that that is true. Many people who might be sympathetic to trans people will be turned against them because they just can't stand the injustice of a dominate genetically female athlete not being able to crush her genetically female competition because a transgender female crushed them instead. It's honestly the silliest **** ever, but people are emotional about it. Sports aren't fair. They never have been. And no one ever gave half a **** about female sports, to the extent that Title 9 has always been controversial. But the same people who opposed title 9 are now lining up to oppose transgender athletes from taking trophies away from genetic females because they just can't tolerate the ****ing injustice of it all.
Eat a transgender dick if you are now the champion of "fairness" in sports. All the sudden. If you for the first time in your life started giving half a **** about "everyone" having a fair shot in sports competition after you heard that a transgender female beat a genetic female in a competition, you're a ****ing hypocrite. Genetically dominate people have been winning at sports for forever. No one ever had a problem with that before. That was sort of the point of the whole thing.
And I've listened to people I like say that high school sports was an even playing field and that everyone was sort of equal to everyone else. If you can say that with a straight face after thinking about it for 10 seconds you're stupid as ****.
This one’s complicated. I think the compromise was….okay. I can see the point of both arguments, and the fallacies in both arguments. We shouldn’t be banning vulnerable youth. Biological differences are also real….especially in sports. Championing women and then championing biological males in womens sports is just as much a contradiction and fallacy as any politically agenda driven motive. It’s not a significant issue outside political discourse I agree, but there are valid conversations and criticisms on the issue. One side that never champions rights of suppressed groups championing rights of women, and the party of “science” outright denying biological differences. A real conundrum this one. And it’s gross and unfortunate kids get caught in that. It’s possible for an issue to be very complicated and no one be fully right.
Biology includes hormones. Once you are on hormone therapy, you are no longer biologically male.
Denying an over-simplified categorization is not denying that differences exist.
Archie Moses
Well-Known Member
I wasn't a jerk at all. You must remember wrong.
I was put in an awkward situation and wasn't told the whole truth beforehand.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
I also don't have all the answers for trans sports. But the "fairness" thing does give me a chuckle.
When I played high school football, I played against Paul Kruger, Harvey Unga, Matt Reynolds, and Britain Covey's oldest brother. You could've sawed off one of Covey's legs and I probably still couldn't have caught him on a QB scramble. Kruger, Reynolds, and Unga? Could've choked the life out of me and probably 99 percent of my teammates if they had wanted. Technically, we were all young men (so I guess it was fair?) but to claim that it was actually fair would be laughable. This might be emasculating (but it's true, I'm old enough to admit it now) but the gap between a trans student playing sports is far smaller than the gap of me playing against those other male athletes. If fairness were the issue then I had no business being in the same stadium let alone the same field as those other male athletes. So this idea that "biological men" are going to dominate women's sports isn't valid to me and the debate of "mediocre biological male athletes" rushing to play women's sports doesn't seem realistic (although I'm open to hearing opposing views on this).
Anyway, I'm not saying that genuine concern over the integrity of women's sports isn't valid. But this concept of fairness is interesting. If fairness were the issue you'd have to adjust region sports in Utah to not only deal with school size but with athletic talent. How is it fair that Taylorsville who has won 5 games in 5 years and hasn't had a winning season since 2015 is in the same classification as Corner Canyon, who has had 2 undefeated seasons and has lost 3 games since 2017? Fairness? Wyoming's football team is in Div I along with Alabama's. Google tells me that Wyoming's football revenue was $13 million last year. Alabama's was nearly $200 million. Fairness? I guess they're all dudes, so it's like totally fair or something.
anyway, more of a critique than anything constructive.
At the end of the day, I'm still learning more about trans sports issues. My main concern is with the actual trans student. I don't envy any of these kids. I really feel for them. Not a single one has had an easy life and often they hate themselves more than anything else. They know and feel something is different about them. It's not a "choice" to go out and dominate sports. All I've ever known have merely wanted to blend in, have friends, feel loved. Often, that's just out of their grasp because being trans typically ostracizes them from religion, friends, family, and society.
When I played high school football, I played against Paul Kruger, Harvey Unga, Matt Reynolds, and Britain Covey's oldest brother. You could've sawed off one of Covey's legs and I probably still couldn't have caught him on a QB scramble. Kruger, Reynolds, and Unga? Could've choked the life out of me and probably 99 percent of my teammates if they had wanted. Technically, we were all young men (so I guess it was fair?) but to claim that it was actually fair would be laughable. This might be emasculating (but it's true, I'm old enough to admit it now) but the gap between a trans student playing sports is far smaller than the gap of me playing against those other male athletes. If fairness were the issue then I had no business being in the same stadium let alone the same field as those other male athletes. So this idea that "biological men" are going to dominate women's sports isn't valid to me and the debate of "mediocre biological male athletes" rushing to play women's sports doesn't seem realistic (although I'm open to hearing opposing views on this).
Anyway, I'm not saying that genuine concern over the integrity of women's sports isn't valid. But this concept of fairness is interesting. If fairness were the issue you'd have to adjust region sports in Utah to not only deal with school size but with athletic talent. How is it fair that Taylorsville who has won 5 games in 5 years and hasn't had a winning season since 2015 is in the same classification as Corner Canyon, who has had 2 undefeated seasons and has lost 3 games since 2017? Fairness? Wyoming's football team is in Div I along with Alabama's. Google tells me that Wyoming's football revenue was $13 million last year. Alabama's was nearly $200 million. Fairness? I guess they're all dudes, so it's like totally fair or something.
anyway, more of a critique than anything constructive.
At the end of the day, I'm still learning more about trans sports issues. My main concern is with the actual trans student. I don't envy any of these kids. I really feel for them. Not a single one has had an easy life and often they hate themselves more than anything else. They know and feel something is different about them. It's not a "choice" to go out and dominate sports. All I've ever known have merely wanted to blend in, have friends, feel loved. Often, that's just out of their grasp because being trans typically ostracizes them from religion, friends, family, and society.
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I mean sure, but pretending that’s just normal, or every case is a just that cut and dry is an agenda driven lie by yourself. It’s why the original “compromise” bill is probably something everyone should have gotten behind in the legislature where there was an evaluation from case to case vs a flat out ban. “Biological differences don’t exist when you heavily medicate them to change them”. K. Why are humans so convinced we are outside the realm of a normal species on this planet and that what you’re saying here has nothing to do with normal and natural biology? I agree there’s a spectrum of masculine and feminine, and yes anyone with a firm position either way on this is over-simplifying it, including yourself. The entire transgender discussion is one that’s very far from decided. I do think those who call people anti-trans or transphobic because they differ on a complicated discussion is stupid and wrong.
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The Thriller
Well-Known Member
This is totally a losing issue, I can totally agree with this. I think it is ostracizing a lot of people. I do think it's probably hurting trans causes. Politically? It's a real rock around a politician's/political party's neck. This is a rough issue that I hope ends up a lot like gay marriage. Back in the early 2000s it was a hot button issue. By now, it's a pretty normal thing for most of us (although there's definitely a vocal segment of the population that wants to overturn it). I don't know if it will end up like that but I hope it does. I really don't like how this hurts the most vulnerable in society.