Vitriolic Rhetoric in Wisconsin

[PearlWatson]

Your request and your comment clearly illustrates you know nothing about what's going on in Wisconsin.

Go back to pretending you're a girl - it's what you do best.

Embarrassed to use Rachel Madcow as a link? I would be too. LOL!
I'm sorry Rachel Madcow let you down but there is no surplus in Wisconsin.
There is $137 million shortfall.
If they counted former Governor Jim Doyle's illegall raid of the patient compensation fund that would bump the shortfall up to $340 million.

Now go back to playing with your little package...it's what you do best.

 

[JJ Rage]

Embarrassed to use Rachel Madcow as a link? I would be too. LOL!
I'm sorry Rachel Madcow let you down but there is no surplus in Wisconsin.
There is $137 million shortfall.
If they counted former Governor Jim Doyle's illegall raid of the patient compensation fund that would bump the shortfall up to $340 million.

Now go back to playing with your little package...it's what you do best.

Funny how the only sources I can find that claim Maddow's show is lying about the surplus are right-leaning news blogs.

American news is a joke. It's all slanted.


Good job on the totally clever and not at all childish wordplay with Maddow's name though. Are you ****ing twelve years old?

 

[PearlWatson]

Funny how the only sources I can find that claim Maddow's show is lying about the surplus are right-leaning news blogs.

American news is a joke. It's all slanted.

Is the Associated Press a right wing blog?

It may all be slanted but it is obvious you love the madcow slant.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

Your request and your comment clearly illustrates you know nothing about what's going on in Wisconsin.

Go back to pretending you're a girl - it's what you do best.

Millsapa = KatieMCR?

 

[VINYLONE]

I think the unions have it right so far....dont give up those CBR's.

 

[TroutBum]

Now go back to playing with your little package...it's what you do best.

Spoken like a true lady.

 

[cowhide]

That part did make me smile.
Notice that Walker didn't spend time blaming his predecessors for the mess he "inherited" either.

Yea because neo cons never blame anyone. I keep forgetting how wonderful the Bush years were. What a joke? Thank Goodness we have the Republicans coming to the rescue. So did overspending just start happening in 2008? The Republicans really don't believe in democracy and protesting unless they are the one's doing it because they are the real americans and they know what is best for America. Now they have gained back some power they use their heavy-handed tactics to paint teachers as the bad guys. Unbelievable!!! How about we start cutting politicians/business pay ($200 million tax cuts) before we start asking middle class america workers to give up there rights and pay. I have little respect for a Governor who gives a $200 million tax cut to business and then ask teachers to give up $$$ to pay for the incompetence of state politicians who can't manage their money.

 

[cowhide]

How about ole governor threatening to bring out the National Guard? Shades of Hank Paulson threatening marshal law on America if the stimulus bill wasn't passed. It's about time the American police state starts kicking some ***. This should be fun over the next few years.

So are you saying people don't have the right to protest?

 

[LogGrad98]

Yea because neo cons never blame anyone. I keep forgetting how wonderful the Bush years were. What a joke? Thank Goodness we have the Republicans coming to the rescue. So did overspending just start happening in 2008? The Republicans really don't believe in democracy and protesting unless they are the one's doing it because they are the real americans and they know what is best for America. Now they have gained back some power they use their heavy-handed tactics to paint teachers as the bad guys. Unbelievable!!! How about we start cutting politicians/business pay ($200 million tax cuts) before we start asking middle class america workers to give up there rights and pay. I have little respect for a Governor who gives a $200 million tax cut to business and then ask teachers to give up $$$ to pay for the incompetence of state politicians who can't manage their money.

You do realize business is where salaries come from. If the left had their way every business would pay all of their profits in taxes so no one in any bracket under $100k would ever pay taxes again. They conveniently forget that business going out of business is bad for the workers who get laid off. Business doing well is good for "middle class america".

And yes republican extremists suck. For this guy to go after teachers, that is deplorable. There is plenty more fat to cut from budgets than teacher salaries. I agree with you there, why don't they go after their own salaries first, then we can talk about other cuts they want to do. Just like congress, passing raises for themselves while cutting social security and government worker pensions.

But don't sit there on your high horse pretending that the left are all angels and puppy dogs and happy things and all that is good and well in the world. You want to talk blame? That is all dems do is push off blame onto "neo cons". They rarely accept any blame for their own mistakes. During the George Bush years that is all the dems vomited was blame and hate. That is why he was elected to a second term. America saw through the dems smoke and mirrors and picked the least evil candidate, or in this case, the most likely to actually do something rather than mate-monger. Also, almost every democrat who voted in support of the Iraq war back-pedaled as soon as it appeared they might not get elected. And the fact that they did it along party lines was a joke, no thinking there. In fact pretty much ANYTHING that happens along party lines is a joke. The fact that in the middle of a controversial war the president who initiated the war act was re-elected tells you that dems either could not come up with a credible candidate to oppose him or that dems are so out of touch with the American people they have no idea what they value.

I can't wait a candidate on either side or an independent that actually thinks for himself. And until we have PEOPLE that actually think for themselves, rather than people like you on the left and others on the right that just spew the latest drivel handed down by the leftist and rightist pundits, we won't have a candidate like that, and America will continue to fall apart from within.

A house divided....

 

[GVC]

I'm afraid that this is the new America.

New?

 

[PearlWatson]

I'm fully aware of what's at stake here. That doesn't change my opinion that teachers are greedy pigs. They do it for the kids my ***.

I think the union bosses are the greedy pigs. The top guy makes $480 k. All teachers are required to join the union and pay dues. They have a great racket going.

 

[Duck Rodgers]

So are you saying people don't have the right to protest?

Of course they do. What I'm saying is that I don't believe our government feels the same way and eventually that will show out as the economics/fiscals of the US continue to degrade.

 

[Surely]

New?

What I mean is newerest. Just kidding. But seriously, up until now we have heard about the deficit and how we are running out of money, but has anybody really lost benefits? Have they had to give up something that they already had? From here on out, I think that we are going to see more and more of this as the reality of being broke as a country, as states, and local governments sets in. Those who think that we can simply continue down the same path that we have been walking for years and years are smoking something. I'm not trying to be a fear monger or anything, but I think that once people are asked to sacrifice something they have enjoyed (instead of just having someone else sacrifice) then the crap is going to hit the fan.

 

[PearlWatson]

For this guy to go after teachers, that is deplorable. There is plenty more fat to cut from budgets than teacher salaries.

Why are teachers off limits? I don't get why this is so "deplorable." Some one is going to be upset no matter the fat that is cut.

The Cost of Public Sector Benefits

There seems to be a larger problem at work here:

For the large majority of our history, public employee unions have been illegal. It is only since the 1960s and 1970s that they have been allowed. Currently, they are legal in roughly half the states. The United States has carried on a four-decade experiment in legalization, and the results are in: public employee unions are a cancer on our country.

Public employee unions flourish because government is, by its nature, a monopoly. Thus, there is no need for unionized government units to compete against non-unionized units. Moreover, public officials who negotiate with public employee unions generally lack the same incentives that private employers have to keep costs down. The result has been a fiscal disaster, with numerous states and municipalities now going over the waterfall of bankruptcy.

Meanwhile, public employee unions have become perhaps the dominant force in our political life. They extract dues from their members which go to fund the candidacies of politicians who will pay public employees even more money. The unions' ill-gotten clout has created a vicious cycle; at the same time that government units are going broke, public employees are now far better paid than their private sector counterparts, while enjoying better benefits and ridiculous job security.

Enough is enough. Legalization of public employee unions has been a disaster. It is time to end the experiment and make them illegal once again, at both the federal and state levels. I expect that this will become one of the great political issues of the next decade.

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/12/028031.php

 

[LogGrad98]

I am not arguing that Unions are a major issue in America today, and not just public sector but private sector as well. In my experience all a Union buys anyone is someone else to pay something to out of pocket. In nearly 20 years of management in both unionized and non-union environments I have yet to see a union that really gains the employees anything but taking their dues.

But by going specifically after teachers and the teachers union in my opinion shows a lack of prioritizing ability. You are trying to tell me that of all the pet projects and pork built into any government budget, the biggest waste factor is in education? Really? I would like to see the litany of other cuts that are being undertaken before they put education on the chopping block.

If that is the 20th thing (or whatever, 10th? 5th?) in their prioritized list of items to cut out of the budget, and all other 19 items have been cut and verified then sure go for it. Better management of education would benefit us all. But if this is the crux of their attempt to manage their budget then it is truly deplorable.

I think there is not enough management in government to begin with. Priorities are not set to benefit the people the most but all too often to benefit the politician. Is this guy keeping the $100k appropriation for new cars for certain state employees every year while trying to get the money out of the education budget? And don't pretend things like this don't happen.

I would just like to see that other options were explored first and acted on before going down this road. We already get mostly the lowest common denominator in eduction due partly to the lower wages (as compared to comparable education and time on the job in the private sector), which is greatly affecting the quality of education in this country.

I am all for eliminating the teachers union and paying based on performance. How that would look is hard to say, and that is the most difficult part of a proposal like that.

But either way this issue needs to be handled with kid gloves so it is not screwed up to the point that any teachers worth their salt just leave the sector and make far more money in other jobs. The unfortunate victims of this issue if handled poorly would be the teachers themselves.

 

[VINYLONE]

I am not arguing that Unions are a major issue in America today, and not just public sector but private sector as well. In my experience all a Union buys anyone is someone else to pay something to out of pocket. In nearly 20 years of management in both unionized and non-union environments I have yet to see a union that really gains the employees anything but taking their dues.

Log, I'll give you my perspective.

I am in the union here at work...Warner Bros. Local 700 IASTE. In "Hollywood" you can't work at one of the major studios unless you are in the union for your specific discipline. I'll list what I think are the positive and negative attributes of being in the union. And mind you, the union I'm in is one of the weakest. Also, I am below the line.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Above_the_line_(filmmaking)

Positives

Pay - I make far and away more money than most of the people I know that are doing the same thing in a non-union post production house. Furthermore, I am always hearing stories of how these places will not or do not pay for overtime. It is absolutely crazy how often these people get taken advantage of. I get a 3 percent raise every year when the contract renews.

Benefits - My health/ dental/ vision benefits are incredibly top notch. If I have any issues, I go to my local motion picture health center and see the doctor. If I need a specialist or want to be referred, I just ask and it's done. Up until last year, there was no co-pay. Now I pay a 10 dollar co-pay. Also, I don't pay for any of these benefits. The union does.

Pension - Depending on our hours worked, there is money that is stored away for us. The union pays into this as well as the studio.

Negatives

Firing - A few years ago, there were a few dudes in both sound and the engineering department that were complete lops. They didn't do **** and they milked the system completely with their fake workers comp ********. It was very hard to get fired...even if most people knew that you were ****ing useless. That said when you really think about, aren't there all sorts of non-union jobs, where there are always employees that dont do **** and never get fired for whatever reason? I mean, this is my first union job, and in all my other jobs, there were useless twits.

Anyway, I said a few years ago because the latest mgmt. team made it a point to get rid of those denizens through whatever means and it worked. Departments were slimmed down. Made more efficient. See, in my union, you're either a daily or weekly worker. If you're deemed a daily hire, they can just call you for that day and don't have to call you the following day. Weekly, you get paid for the week, even if you only work one day. I am weekly but have not taken a day off in 6 years. If you call in sick, you don't get paid for it. While we do get vacation pay, you see it on one special check at the beginning of March. So if you miss a day during the year, you'll check will be light.



Dues - Not sure if this should fall under positive or negative. I pay 200 dollars every 3 months in dues. I think its reasonable considering I dont pay for health benefits, though, I guess you could say I do.

 

[Jerry Lundegaard]

I don't pay much attention to the news, so I clicked on this thread hoping for another Brett Favre scandal thread.

Here's my take on the whole issue for the hundreds who PM'd me requesting it:

The public education system was, is and will be crap - especially in urban areas across our great country. Regardless of the outcome in Wisconsin, and regardless of what/if any precedent is set, it will remain that way.

Of course the issue underlying everything is the idea of unions and their role in society. To that regard, I offer insight from someone who hasn't ever been part of a union. I don't watch the news, haven't read enough about the significance of particular unions in history and not friends or family with any union members. My wife's co-worker Rob is in a union, but it's with Greg.

So if the Teachers get their way in Wisconsin, perhaps it will inspire Rob and Greg to from a union with others in the same type of union called Gay Unions Union. Newscasters can refer to them as GUU (pronounced Goo). Who knows, though. Maybe teachers will go the way of Rob and Greg and start seeking out smaller unions that include 2-8 people depending on location and state law.

In closing, I would not be surprised if in the future of America (ballparking 50 years) it will be all Charter Schools. Whether that's sparked by a ruling in Wisconsin, or not, that's just my prophetic hunch.

 

[LogGrad98]

I agree with a lot of what you posted Viny, but you need to keep in mind that you are in a generally high-dollar industry. Very few unionized workers in other industries have anything beyond average benefits let alone benefits they don't have to pay for. Also your dues are pretty steep. Most union dues are about 1/3 that and I know many workers who have a hard time paying that, and still the benefits they get from their union are far less than what you are getting out of it. To make things worse, all the negatives still apply, but in spades. In one plant where I worked the union staged a walkout during CBA negotiations. They kept workers out of work and out of a paycheck for 5 days (one work week). This was all over extra sick leave when management had already conceded on benefits, vacation and personal time. The budget just could not handle more than that, and as it was I knew we would have a hard time hitting our cost targets (I had intimate knowledge of the budget). We were offering what amounted to 2 weeks of sick pay accrued over the year, non-rollover (use it or use it yearly). They wanted 3 weeks and wanted it to accrue for a 3 year period. That was on top of 2 weeks of vacation and 2 weeks of "personal" time, which went up to 3 weeks vaca after 3 years and 4 after 7 years. We just couldn't absorb any more so we held firm, they walked out. We finally settled on rolling the sick time over for 2 years instead of 3 and keeping 2 weeks of sick accrual.

I had many employees contacting me during the walkout - I gave out my cell as the GM so I could stay connected to my employees, I regularly spent time with folks on weekends, evenings etc. I knew my workforce. The employees contacting me said they were worried about not getting paid for this week. That one week made a difference to most of them. My hands were tied by the limits of the CBA. Now for the kicker. When they came back to work they found the union was raising their dues, which the CBA gave them the right to due during negotiations for a new CBA. They raised dues 20%, and listed as one reason the walkout. So they cost their people a weeks pay and then charged them for it. Before I left for another opportunity I saw many employees roll their sick time over and max it out over the 2 year rollover period and there it stayed. We had provided more than enough time off in vacation, personal, and the initial 2 weeks of sick time. They didn't need the rollover. A few did but they were a very small minority. So for a very dubious benefit the union cost the employees quite a chunk.

That is pretty standard from what I have seen from unions. I am glad you are in an industry where the unions function better and the money is there to get you such great benefits and pay. Unfortunately in most industries the unions hamper more than they help - look at the auto industry where the unions unwillingness to budge when the big 3 were failing was a substantial part of the cost crunch that almost brought down the biggest employer in the country. I am by no means saying that management had nothing to do with it, but it is borderline impossible to account for a payroll that is seriously skewed and a payroll policy that is so flawed that is just does not justify the lack of productivity.

When it comes to the teachers union I think there is another factor to be taken into account. My brother-in-law is a principal in a junior high. He has teachers he knows are sub-standard that he has told me about. They teach math and science and english and he wishes they did not teach at his school. He had the data and the evidence that they just were not doing their jobs (one of them had missed something like 2 months, one day at a time here and there) and he went before the union to fire them. He was roadblocked to the point where it just wasn't worth the effort. The only thing that got anyone to budge was the declining test scores in his school as a result of the critically assessed areas being taught by basically unqualified or uncaring teachers. The decline in test scores prompted a decrease in funding. This meant lower salaries or fewer teachers. Rather than run that risk the union conceded and they got rid of 2 of the 5 teachers causing issues.

So in essence it took a gross failure to teach our children to remove a low performer. So ok now that teacher is gone, what about the kids that receive a sub-standard education before he left? That is my biggest concern in education. In your example of the firing issue it just meant the other workers had to carry the freeloaders. In the school system it means kids don't get the education they need. And all the while it is the union leaders who are pocketing obscene sums of money that keep the system in place.

No wonder we are falling behind the rest of the industrialized world in education.

 

[candrew]

I am not arguing that Unions are a major issue in America today, and not just public sector but private sector as well. In my experience all a Union buys anyone is someone else to pay something to out of pocket. In nearly 20 years of management in both unionized and non-union environments I have yet to see a union that really gains the employees anything but taking their dues.

.

Either you're lying or you're working with a very low-skilled pool of workers.

My Dad was a skilled union worker his whole life and I can tell you for a fact that our family had medical insurance, dental insurance, vacations, etc because of unions. Comparable non-union, jobs to what my Dad did were always for less pay and less benefits.

 

[candrew]

The public education system was, is and will be crap - especially in urban areas across our great country. Regardless of the outcome in Wisconsin, and regardless of what/if any precedent is set, it will remain that way.

I went to an excellent public school. My son goes to an excellent public school. That's because I grew up in and currently live in an area where the parent's care about the quality of their child's education. My son's school is packed on open school night and PTA Meetings. The parents are contantly in the ear of the faculty and the administration.

The fact is, in many areas, as a whole, the parents don't care about nor have any involvement in their kid's school. It's quite obvious that when few people care about the quality of a product, that product is going to be of very low quality. Of course, no poliitician is going to stand up and say "Hey, maybe your schools suck because you suck." And it's virtually impossible to inject quality into a school on a city, state or national level. It has to start at the community level from the ground up.

As for your prediction about Charter Schools - you may be right. But guess what? When that happens many of those schools will be crap too. There is no easy fix.