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When will the next W be?

GVC said:
This false dichotomy you're pushing is odd. I've explained my position (repeatedly), and you continue to respond to some other **** I never said.

Do you think the Jazz are in better position to build a winner now than they were in the summer of 2012? Why/how?
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Define a "winner?"

PG: Harris, Watson, Tinsley
SG: Bell, Miles, Burks
SF: Hayward, Carroll
PF: Millsap, Favors
C: Jefferson, Kanter

Coming off 36-30 season. Certainly in position to be a winning team. Maybe 45-48 tops? That roster was never going to win 50 games. And that's what it may take to even get a playoff spot this season.

Didn't we have essentially the same team the next season? Tried to upgrade at PG with Mo instead of Devin. Finally gave up on CJ and brought in Foye. Strengthened the bench by trading for Marvin Williams. Yes, Utah had a winning season (43-39), but what good did that do? Jazz finished 2 games out of the playoffs.

Additionally, you can't keep all those guys. Burks, Hayward, Favors and Kanter were all on rookie deals. You have to make some choices, just as OKC did with Harden.
Let Big Al, Foye and Mo go. Re-sign Millsap and Carroll. Draft Trey to replace Mo. That was likely the strategy proposed by Kevin "re-tool" O'Connor. Valid strategy. What would be the end result? Do they ever win 50 games? Do they ever win 55 and get home court in the first round? We could argue about that, but I say no. Destiny, IMO: fighting for 7th/8th seed for a few years. Eliminated in 1st round each time.

Now, I'm not sure we'll ever see a 55-60 win team. But I do support at least TRYING to get a franchise player. Will Exum ever be a star? Will he approach Stockton-type status? Will we draft the next Karl Malone with our pick this summer? I have no idea. But as has been argued ad infinitum on this board, you don't "WIN" in the NBA without superstars. And if we can't trade for one or attract one via free agency (and Utah hasn't been able to do that in 35 years...unless you consider Hornacek a superstar), then the ONLY chance Utah has is to try to draft one.

To me, being a winner is aspiring to a championship. So I answer your question as this: the team in the summer of 2012 had ZERO chance of EVER being a winner. Right now? I have no idea. The team is incomplete and we just don't know how good guys like Exum, Gobert and our 1st-round pick in 2015 are going to be. Plus, we should have the cap space to add another high-salaried player. Ask me the same question at this time next season.
 
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Stifle Tower said:
Define a "winner?"

PG: Harris, Watson, Tinsley
SG: Bell, Miles, Burks
SF: Hayward, Carroll
PF: Millsap, Favors
C: Jefferson, Kanter

Coming off 36-30 season. Certainly in position to be a winning team. Maybe 45-48 tops? That roster was never going to win 50 games. And that's what it may take to even get a playoff spot this season.

Didn't we have essentially the same team the next season? Tried to upgrade at PG with Mo instead of Devin. Finally gave up on CJ and brought in Foye. Strengthened the bench by trading for Marvin Williams. Yes, Utah had a winning season (43-39), but what good did that do? Jazz finished 2 games out of the playoffs.

Additionally, you can't keep all those guys. Burks, Hayward, Favors and Kanter were all on rookie deals. You have to make some choices, just as OKC did with Harden.
Let Big Al, Foye and Mo go. Re-sign Millsap and Carroll. Draft Trey to replace Mo. That was likely the strategy proposed by Kevin "re-tool" O'Connor. Valid strategy. What would be the end result? Do they ever win 50 games? Do they ever win 55 and get home court in the first round? We could argue about that, but I say no. Destiny, IMO: fighting for 7th/8th seed for a few years. Eliminated in 1st round each time.

Now, I'm not sure we'll ever see a 55-60 win team. But I do support at least TRYING to get a franchise player. Will Exum ever be a star? Will he approach Stockton-type status? Will we draft the next Karl Malone with our pick this summer? I have no idea. But as has been argued ad infinitum on this board, you don't "WIN" in the NBA without superstars. And if we can't trade for one or attract one via free agency (and Utah hasn't been able to do that in 35 years...unless you consider Hornacek a superstar), then the ONLY chance Utah has is to try to draft one.

To me, being a winner is aspiring to a championship. So I answer your question as this: the team in the summer of 2012 had ZERO chance of EVER being a winner. Right now? I have no idea. The team is incomplete and we just don't know how good guys like Exum, Gobert and our 1st-round pick in 2015 are going to be. Plus, we should have the cap space to add another high-salaried player. Ask me the same question at this time next season.
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1. By winner I mean legitimate contender. You seem to have missed the point of all my posts on this topic...repeatedly. Go ahead and read them.

Is the team in a better position to build a contender today than it was when DL took over? Since DL took over, he let his best players (still to date) go for nothing, let other NBA rotation players leave for nothing, made a few trades (exclusively in the summer) that seem to have added very little value, and signed what were cheap, controllable lottery picks to bloated contracts. The assets on the team are losing value, the team has no stars, and DL continues to do nothing October through June. It's not a good sign.

2. OKC made a mistake trading Harden. Still, at least they got something for him.

3. I'd love a response to my post in the other thread.
 
I agree with GVC on that one.
Even though chosen general direction and each small step taken in its realisation are justifiable, all in all currently we are in a worse position to become contenders than 2012 team. I am pretty sure that this was calculated risk and we may very well be on track as planned but as a gambler the Jazz management need to rely more and more on hitting eluding jackpot instead of building up using proven and reliable strategy with predictable outcome.
 
zbone said:
the Jazz management need to rely more and more on hitting eluding jackpot instead of building up using proven and reliable strategy with predictable outcome.
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Lol. I'm still waiting to hear how we rebuild without getting star players.
 
I mean really who and why gives a flying *****? I’m all for rooting for the win and caring while I’m watching the games. Its tiring though to see people get on here and act like the Jazz loosing is an attack on them personally. Its entertainment, It’s not your high school basketball career. It’s entertainment.

The great thing about the NBA is there are 29 other teams. So if your so disgusted that you want to becoming a band Wagoner then go ahead and do it, Stop b!tching. It’s not doing any good for you or anyone else. Do you really think the nice ladies and gentlemen whose jobs it is to put together winning teams are giving less effort than you? It’s not personal, its entertainment.

Yes, our team is in a few down years. Yes, they are not "dominate" when playing the most elite players, in the most elite league in the world. Please shut up though. It’s not your life, it’s your hobby.

You’re not paying to see the Jazz win. That’s the mistake and the silly arrogance that you’re confused with. Your paying to have any NBA team play in your city. You’re paying to see the best basketball players in the world come through your home town 41 times a year. That’s what you’re paying for. Not this pampered idea that just because you claim this team as your favorite they have to win more games then they lose. Please just enjoy the season.

The constant complaining about how bad things are is childish. Although I truly hope that you live in the world where the Utah Jazz having a hard season is the overcoming hardship in your life. I truly do, that makes it a possibility for the rest of us. Please though give it a break. It you continue down this "give me a championship now" path you’re only going to be very disappointed. I’m sorry to say it friend but we probably never will.

Lastly please leave the self-righteous rhetoric to those who are paid to do it because frankly it’s more than old; it’s already dead, enjoy the team or stop claiming to be a fan. Being a fan is like being married. It’s for "Better or worse."
 
JoelHodgeJr said:
It you continue down this "give me a championship now" path you’re only going to be very disappointed.
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To be fair though, next year was supposed to be the 'chip. This year was supposed to be second round exit in 7 games and all of our losses are by 1 point so our guys never get discouraged. Seemed like a simple plan.
 
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