Yes Means Yes law passed

[LogGrad98]

Do I get to respond with equally loaded scenarios?

For example, do if I come back with a pair where the guy in your wife-beater is your best friend, everyone has seen you together, and he's even been seen backing your car out of the driveway in the first scenario; while in the second, the woman was having drinking games with her friends, and on the way out the door the guy just offered to walk her home out of the blue and he was seen leaving her apartment, then which is more ambiguous?

How woulde you feel if the police told you since you knew the the guy, he couldn't have stolen your car?

So you are saying that the scenarios I have created are no where near "typical" in any way shape or form? You are saying that it is FAR more likely that my car is stolen by someone who could have a fully legitimate claim on being my best friend? I was trying to be very generic in the scenario. You can build any scenario you want, even that a super-villain had your best friend replaced and genetically altered to trick everyone and then had him steal your car. Which is most likely? Try being just a tad intellectually honest here.

 

[One Brow]

So you are saying that the scenarios I have created are no where near "typical" in any way shape or form? You are saying that it is FAR more likely that my car is stolen by someone who could have a fully legitimate claim on being my best friend? I was trying to be very generic in the scenario. You can build any scenario you want, even that a super-villain had your best friend replaced and genetically altered to trick everyone and then had him steal your car. Which is most likely? Try being just a tad intellectually honest here.

If we are being intellectually honest, then the woman who all over the guy in the bar and is enthusiastically removing her clothes won't be crying rape in the morning. I acknowledge your car scenario is more likely than mine; my rape scenario is much more likely than yours.

 

[PearlWatson]

Your quotes didn't offer any evidence of the bogus part. For example, "the clear possibility that those who had been victimized were more apt to have completed the questionnaire" is no greater than the clear possibility that those who had been victimized were" less "apt to have completed the questionnaire".
You misrepresented Summers misrepresentation of the study.
Your video is using a definition of rape culture that I have never seen a feminist use.

Why I say the finding are bogus:
Only 2 universities surveyed
Large nonresponse rate
Too broad definition of "sexual assault" (what the hell is "attempted forced kissing?" Is that different than attempted kiss that was rejected?)
Included "not sure" as yes

I don't understand your Sommers complaint.

Please provide both definitions of "rape culture" so I can see how they conflict.

 

[LogGrad98]

If we are being intellectually honest, then the woman who all over the guy in the bar and is enthusiastically removing her clothes won't be crying rape in the morning. I acknowledge your car scenario is more likely than mine; my rape scenario is much more likely than yours.

GF gave us an actual example of a rape scenario that far more closely resembled my hypothetical. Do you have any stats that say that some random guy walking up out of nowhere outside of a bar is a more likely rapist than someone she had already known to some degree? I know my daughter in her intro to college class at UNR was taught that she is far more likely to be raped by an acquaintance than a stranger. Not sure where they got that from, but they were talking about rape statistics at the university and cited that a date rape scenario is way more likely and talked about being sure of what they are ingesting and not drinking or taking things they don't know anything about, stuff like that.


edit: I googled it real quick and came up with this:

For many, the word “rape” conjures up images of a stranger behind a bush in a dark place with no one else around. In school we are taught to recognize stranger danger and how to say no to a mysterious figure. However, the reality of rape is very different and far more disturbing. Rape is most likely to occur, not with a stranger, but with someone you know and trust. According to the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, 55% of sexually assaulted women know their attacker. Acquaintance rape is a forced sexual assault committed by an individual whom you know: someone you just met, dated a few times, are in a committed relationship with, or are related to. The force involved can be physical, or implied with threats. Acquaintance rape is a violation of body and trust, but above all it is an act of violence – and it is wrong.

https://www.victimsofviolence.on.ca/rev2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=326&Itemid=16

I can't imagine it is that much different in American vs Canada.

 

[One Brow]

Why I say the finding are bogus:
Only 2 universities surveyed
Large nonresponse rate
Too broad definition of "sexual assault" (what the hell is "attempted forced kissing?" Is that different than attempted kiss that was rejected?)
Included "not sure" as yes

I don't understand your Sommers complaint.

Please provide both definitions of "rape culture" so I can see how they conflict.

In the initial survey there were 2 universities, the findings have since been confirmed at other universities.

A large non-response rate means the number could be greater or smaller than 20%, possibly. How can you know which one?

Yes, forcing a kiss id different from asking for a kiss. Force means that after the intial rejection, the kisser would have physically handled the kissee to attempt to force them into a kiss.

Depending on the context, some someimtes "not sure" is a valid yes. Women internalize the victim-blaming, and blame themselves even though others can see it was not their fault.

In the video, they falsely define "rape culture" as meaning the approval of rape. In the definitions I have seen, rape culture consists of downplaying/discounting accusations of rape, victim blaming/shaming, saying it is in the nature of men, etc.

 

[One Brow]

GF gave us an actual example of a rape scenario that far more closely resembled my hypothetical. Do you have any stats that say that some random guy walking up out of nowhere outside of a bar is a more likely rapist than someone she had already known to some degree? I know my daughter in her intro to college class at UNR was taught that she is far more likely to be raped by an acquaintance than a stranger. Not sure where they got that from, but they were talking about rape statistics at the university and cited that a date rape scenario is way more likely and talked about being sure of what they are ingesting and not drinking or taking things they don't know anything about, stuff like that.


edit: I googled it real quick and came up with this:



https://www.victimsofviolence.on.ca/rev2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=326&Itemid=16

I can't imagine it is that much different in American vs Canada.

The gentleman who offers to walk the lady home introduces himself ahead of time, naturally.

Embellishments you added to Gameface's scenario:
Danincg together and making out at the bar.
She remembers taking off all hew clothes and engaging in fun play with naked bodies.

You don't think those two items skewed your narrative just a bit? As I said, no matter where you draw the line, you find gray areas.

When I asked about other things that might happen after drinking, no one came forward to say that they assumed some else had forced them into the action. Have you ever woken up after drinking, and thought someone had forced you into something without your consent?

Lot's of women wake up with regrets after drunk coitus, prtty much every day. Very few of them say they were raped. Often, the same woman who says rape in one instance will have had other instances where she does not believe she was raped. Why is it so hard to accept that the reason these women think differently is because they were treated differently?

 

[fishonjazz]

There are probably scenarios when a woman consents to sex and then the man upsets her in some way, so she decides to cry rape in an effort to **** the man over

 

[babe]

There are probably scenarios when a woman consents to sex and then the man upsets her in some way, so she decides to cry rape in an effort to **** the man over

Fundamentally, the OB/Log discussion above is exhibit A in my argument that our country has gone to Hell. Well, Exhibit B might be my desperation coming to a sports site to try to discuss politics and religion.

As a culture, what do we really care about or consider important?

keeping terrorists bent on blowing up our citys' infrastructure or most symbolic architecture off our soil?

protecting the economic interests of American workers?

keeping our boys out of useless foreign conflicts?

resisting the corrupt influence of fascists hell-bent on turning our government programs into their personal cash cows??/

if we don't care about things that do matter, who is going to?

Chinese business interests trying vainly to deploy our worthless printed money by buying worthless American resources and real estate?

 

[babe]

Yes doesn't even mean Yes

I don't care if the woman marries a man legally and in front of her church, family and friends.

There is in reality no meaning attached to marriage beyond whatever the woman feels or wants from minute to minute. . . . . at least not in our culture, anymore.

For words to have any meaning, there need to be some beliefs about personal responsibility, personal morality, and in some higher power that represents transcendent truth somehow. . . . .

secular humanism, cutting off all attribution to universal principles that will stand as true on their own inherent terms as truth, reduces us to squabbling morons socially, and to "human resources" under the absolute tyranny of fascist elites politically.

 

[Gameface]

I don't care if the woman marries a man legally and in front of her church, family and friends.

There is in reality no meaning attached to marriage beyond whatever the woman feels or wants from minute to minute. . . . . at least not in our culture, anymore.

For words to have any meaning, there need to be some beliefs about personal responsibility, personal morality, and in some higher power that represents transcendent truth somehow. . . . .

secular humanism, cutting off all attribution to universal principles that will stand as true on their own inherent terms as truth, reduces us to squabbling morons socially, and to "human resources" under the absolute tyranny of fascist elites politically.

The rules have and always will be made by mere humans. The times when the rules were based on an appeal to the unquestionable authority of a mystical creator the greatest horrors and slowest advances have been made. When "secularism" begins to take hold humanity is elevated and progress that benefits each and every one of us gains new legs.

I shudder at the horror of a world where men in funny hats residing in pointy buildings tell us what their mystical slave master demands of us.

 

[LogGrad98]

He demands of us to love our neighbor and do good to others. The horror! !!

 

[silesian]

Framing of this discussion

Whether or not the real number is 20% ( if the number is 10% or 5% or 2% do you feel that it is not a problem? )

And, a lot of arguing about ambiguous "but what if...." scenarios

And, a lot of framing the men as the falsely accused victims (which is the case in any crime).


I wonder why there is not a lot a lot of discussion about this as a real problem with real victims and what to do about it.