Yuck yuck yuck

[framer]

I have no horse in the UoU/BYU rivalry. But I'll always say we should try to fix our own house first. I don't think anyone in in Utah should feel comfortable.

I'm LDS; I grew up in Utah. I'll start working on my anti-racism there.

Kind of a funny thing. I served my mission in Oklahoma/Arkansas and had a 6'4 300 pound Tongan companion. He was straight off the island and still learning English. It was interesting to see the people there try to come to grips with him because they had likely never seen a Polynesian and didn't know how to process it. They were familiar with Native Americans, and he wasn't that. They knew he wasn't black. But because he was so big, we would often be greeted with guns at the door (which frankly wasn't all that uncommon there, especially in the country.) His first area was in Kansas, where he worked to get a drivers license and got one. So when people asked him, "Where are you from, son?" he would say "I from Kansas!" with a big grin and show him his license.

The lesson is that, in Utah, most people are familiar with Poly culture and Polynesians and wouldn't bat an eye over seeing a Polynesian at Walmart. Utah doesn't have a big black population, and probably never will, just for normal demographic reasons (the entire Intermountain West is the same.) Without personal exposure to black culture, it will be hard for people to become familiar enough with black culture to not make occasional mistakes or misunderstandings. That can't be fixed with classes, or hectoring, or twitter posts. It can only be fixed with more people in Utah having experience with black people, which will likely happen as Utah grows and diversifies its economy.

None of this excuses the flat out racists, who should be called out as they were that night. But if you try lumping in some 75 year old lady from Salina, Utah who has probably never met a black person into the same bucket as these morons because she doesn't share the opinion that racism is institutional isn't really helping. Most of the people demanding that we "understand" really aren't interested in that. They just want a club to beat their political enemies, and turn a blind eye to the racism (or recent antisemitism) in their own tribe.

 

[Douchebag K]

Beggars belief what ***** some ppl are

 

[Max Porter]

Let's be honest, the only reason people care is because Utah= Mormon. Even the anti-Mormon portion of Utah likes to think that this behavior is linked to the Church. It would have nothing to do with them because they are enlightened

If this was happening in Indiana, people would blame alcohol mixed with ***holes and not the community.

So I left the church and am definitely not Mormon. I’ve lived here all my life. I don’t think those racists or racist views have anything to do with Mormonism so I don’t know what you are talking about. You’re trying to criticize generalizations by generalizing.

 

[Max Porter]

Who said I was joking. Give a listen to Fitty's new music....then come back here and apologize.

Longish post, but explains it fully:

I said the people in the stands at The Garden these days ARE NOT the regular Knick fans. Once again, season ticket holders are staying away in droves due to the fact that the Knicks organization have told them they can not sit in their normal seats and they must be sectioned off into various sections (one covid shot, fully vaccinated, no shot...). The season ticket holders have mostly declined and that opened the doors to schmucks who rarely attend a Knick game.

Just look at the crowd -- it is mostly twenty-something guys who do not know the game or the team at all. For God's sake, they cheer Frank The Frenchman when he takes to the court! They cheer when a guy like Elfrid Payton shift is over. They chant the F-word at an opponent (and it is an opponent who has a total of just five games at The Garden! Think about how stupid those "fans" are. Knick fans never abused Michael or Kobe or even Reggie...but Trae Young? A guy who has a total of five Garden appearances they chant F you?) Once again, they are not the normal fan base. Little rich kids who had mommy and daddy buy them tickets..and do not know the game! It is disgusting. I noticed it throughout the season. My friends thought I was nuts when I would say something is very different with the Knick fans...like that movie INVASION OF THE BODY SNATCHERS --"That's not my wife." My friends thought I was looney. Then it was finally explained that the season ticket holders - our fans - are not going due to covid fears and restrictions. I was right. Those in attendance are not the Knick fans who have been going for years and years!

Ask yourself, "Have Knick fans EVER behaved this way?" No. Yankee fans, Ranger fans, Mets, and Jets...yup. But never Knick fans. Steller rep.....until they allowed these young dopes who are clueless about the game and team.

Says the guy who is literally only on these posts to heckle. Behavior from those particular Knick fans AND behavior those particular jazz fans are BOTH unacceptable do you agree?

It’s really not that complicated - this isn’t about generalizing an entire city or base. You don’t live here there are good people here who are nothing like these individuals just as there are good people there. Calling out behavior is productive. Divisive BS meant to label an entire group is not. New Yorkers get labeled all the time as having zero manners and being aggressive. Is it true for some New Yorkers? Yes. All? Of course not.

 

[MCarter]

It's not an either or thing. Yes, it happens everywhere. But it happens in Utah more. Utah also gets a higher blame for things.

Horribly behavior is everywhere I've ever been. But that doesn't excuse it.

Maybe gets publicized at Utah games more (any amount is inexcusable) but seriously dude, I’m telling ya, I’ve heard and seen many more things in the south that shook me. A **** is a **** no matter where it is, but I’m telling ya eastern Texas/ Houston / Louisiana has some blatant and obvious and openly out there that’ll racism that will raise the hair on your back.

With that being said, I feel the mountain west definitely has there own unique form of racism that stems largely from ignorance. Where the south seems like some people find a literal friction between races, IMO, I feel that the mountain west is often just pure ignorance.

This is largely just based off my experience though so it’s very subjective. I lived down south for awhile and dated a black girl up here (I’m white) so my experience is obviously different being white, but dating a dark girl really opened my eyes up to all the crude comments she heard as “jokes”. She cried often, super hurtful and just ridiculously ignorant things.

 

[MCarter]

What do you expect when you in a majority trump state?

Nah nah nah, none of that. I get Trump is divisive, Biden is divisive, whatever, but comments like that only increase the division and erode common ground. I respect a decent amount of your posts but it’s dangerous to make large sweeping derogatory generalizations about any group- that’s how you ended up with people increasing in hate and division. I’ll respect anyone’s opinion that’s different that mine, but I despise false and dangerous logic. That hurts everyone.

 

[MCarter]

I agree to some extent with your second and third sentences. One's relationship (or lack of) with Mormonism shouldn't be seen as a dividing line to position oneself as "part of the solution" vs "part of the problem."

But at the same time, the role of Mormonism in the racism that does exist in the area's culture does need to be acknowledged and confronted (with the goal of improvement).

The LDS church has taken a very forward stance on racism in regards to talks on it in general conferences, donations to groups such as the NCAA, and all kinds of church media and short videos talking about the need for unity and charity etc. IMO the leaders are very aware, I believe it’s very influenced by an ignorance factor that stems from lack of diversity in the Mountain West. Any ideas that the church is perpetuating any form of racism is blatantly false.

 

[framer]

So I left the church and am definitely not Mormon. I’ve lived here all my life. I don’t think those racists or racist views have anything to do with Mormonism so I don’t know what you are talking about. You’re trying to criticize generalizations by generalizing.

Being an exMormon does not mean antiMormon. Most times, in fact, it does not. But, for antiMormon folk, you better believe they see something like this and assign 100% blame for this or anything bad that happens in the State of Utah to the LDS church.

 

[idiot]

The LDS church has taken a very forward stance on racism in regards to talks on it in general conferences, donations to groups such as the NCAA, and all kinds of church media and short videos talking about the need for unity and charity etc. IMO the leaders are very aware, I believe it’s very influenced by an ignorance factor that stems from lack of diversity in the Mountain West. Any ideas that the church is perpetuating any form of racism is blatantly false.

I'm very aware that the institutional church these days is more racially progressive than many of its members (as becomes clear whenever the Deseret News allows one of its NAACP partners to publish an opinion piece). But it's absolutely the case that it had a role to play in helping to create and perpetuate the racist attitudes of the area that have been slow to dissolve among some. There's plenty of good histories out there that document this.

I also think it's fair to say that the church's unwillingness to fully confront the racism in its own past may (for some) legitimate the larger American unwillingness to fully confront the US's racial past.

 

[idiot]

Kind of a funny thing. I served my mission in Oklahoma/Arkansas and had a 6'4 300 pound Tongan companion. He was straight off the island and still learning English. It was interesting to see the people there try to come to grips with him because they had likely never seen a Polynesian and didn't know how to process it. They were familiar with Native Americans, and he wasn't that. They knew he wasn't black. But because he was so big, we would often be greeted with guns at the door (which frankly wasn't all that uncommon there, especially in the country.) His first area was in Kansas, where he worked to get a drivers license and got one. So when people asked him, "Where are you from, son?" he would say "I from Kansas!" with a big grin and show him his license.

The lesson is that, in Utah, most people are familiar with Poly culture and Polynesians and wouldn't bat an eye over seeing a Polynesian at Walmart. Utah doesn't have a big black population, and probably never will, just for normal demographic reasons (the entire Intermountain West is the same.) Without personal exposure to black culture, it will be hard for people to become familiar enough with black culture to not make occasional mistakes or misunderstandings. That can't be fixed with classes, or hectoring, or twitter posts. It can only be fixed with more people in Utah having experience with black people, which will likely happen as Utah grows and diversifies its economy.

None of this excuses the flat out racists, who should be called out as they were that night. But if you try lumping in some 75 year old lady from Salina, Utah who has probably never met a black person into the same bucket as these morons because she doesn't share the opinion that racism is institutional isn't really helping. Most of the people demanding that we "understand" really aren't interested in that. They just want a club to beat their political enemies, and turn a blind eye to the racism (or recent antisemitism) in their own tribe.

If it were only the 75 year olds from Salina that had the problem, we'd probably all be a lot less worried about Utah's racism ,,,

(I agree that unfamiliarity with different group plays an important role in Utah's particular racism, but that's why we need more education, not less. And I really don't agree with your characterization about "most" of those those promoting more "understanding", though understand why you might see things differently.)

 

[framer]

I'm very aware that the institutional church these days is more racially progressive than many of its members (as becomes clear whenever the Deseret News allows one of its NAACP partners to publish an opinion piece). But it's absolutely the case that it had a role to play in helping to create and perpetuate the racist attitudes of the area that have been slow to dissolve among some. There's plenty of good histories out there that document this.

I also think it's fair to say that the church's unwillingness to fully confront the racism in its own past may (for some) legitimate the larger American unwillingness to fully confront the US's racial past.

No group, conservative or progressive, "confronts" the "sins" of its past. None of them do. That is never what this is about. It is different groups trying to whitewash their troublesome past and current policies by believing they are on some holier ground than the people they despise. Everyone is always interested in showing what THOSE other people are wrong about.

When do you ever see, "these are the things that I adopted in my personal life to hate others a little less today? "

 

[idiot]

No group, conservative or progressive, "confronts" the "sins" of its past. None of them do. That is never what this is about. It is different groups trying to whitewash their troublesome past and current policies by believing they are on some holier ground than the people they despise. Everyone is always interested in showing what THOSE other people are wrong about.

When do you ever see, "these are the things that I adopted in my personal life to hate others a little less today? "

I understand your cynicism on this. I share some if it, but not all of it. Arguably a very clear difference in how this plays out has been Germany vs. Japan after World War II. The former has been seen as a model for taking accountability (however imperfectly), while the latter is often seen as the opposite. Closer to home, Canada has arguably done more to take responsibility for its actions toward First Nations than the U.S. has done toward Native Americans. The point isn't that any of this is perfect, but rather that it's possible for some institutions/groups to do better than others.

 

[framer]

If it were only the 75 year olds from Salina that had the problem, we'd probably all be a lot less worried about Utah's racism ,,,

(I agree that unfamiliarity with different group plays an important role in Utah's particular racism, but that's why we need more education, not less. And I really don't agree with your characterization about "most" of those those promoting more "understanding", though understand why you might see things differently.)

OK, I would probably rephrase that to "most" of those those DEMANDING more "understanding." I can actually full get behind promoting understanding. Understanding comes through teaching and friendship, not at the point of a metaphorical gun.

I mean, I talked to a person that REMEMBERED the Tulsa race riots as a little girl living in the community. I've lived in towns where the segregated areas of town pretty much remain that way. I've knocked doors in cities where we didn't encounter a single black person, when the surrounding areas were probably at 25-30% black. That didn't happen organically. I lived in Russia, where in the late 90's, racism against black people was pretty out in the open and certain degrees were not available to members of certain races (you could be a nurse but not a doctor.) Utah's race "problem" isn't in the same stratosphere with stuff like that, and as a Utahn, it is hard to comprehend that stuff without seeing it personally.

The trick is to find the way to "see it personally" when that history isn't THEIR history. Everybody has their top concerns and are unlikely to kindly let someone else dictate what the order of those concerns should be, especially for an issue which barely, if ever, touches their lives.

 

[framer]

I understand your cynicism on this. I share some if it, but not all of it. Arguably a very clear difference in how this plays out has been Germany vs. Japan after World War II. The former has been seen as a model for taking accountability (however imperfectly), while the latter is often seen as the opposite. Closer to home, Canada has arguably done more to take responsibility for its actions toward First Nations than the U.S. has done toward Native Americans. The point isn't that any of this is perfect, but rather that it's possible for some institutions/groups to do better than others.

But HAVE they done better? It's anecdotal, but my friend who served in Germany was lectured all of the time about how poorly we treated the Native Americans. He was inwardly thinking "some of you, and most of your parents were around for the Holocaust!" Germany has outlawed the Nazi party, OK, but that was kind of not going to be a thing going forward anyway. The biggest thing about Germany and Japan is that they were freely offered a chance at redemption, far and above the level that they had earned and they took full advantage of it. They "wiped the slate clean" because they were allowed to do so by the rest of the Allied nations. A marked difference between the results of WW1. Offering a chance for redemption like that is pretty rare in today's climate.

I am not sure that the US has done nothing lately to help Native Americans. I would argue they have done plenty of the wrong thing. Of the 5 Indian boys my age I grew up with, 3 are dead and 1 is in prison. All three due to accidents involving alcohol. At this late point, I'm not sure what government could do to fix that. Any one of those kids could have went on with any type of schooling, fully covered financially. None of them had the desire to. They went to the same schools I did, so there was no difference there. They just had a different culture.

Because of those boys, and the time I spent in Oklahoma, I'm sensitive to Native American Issues, but I understand that it doesn't cross the threshold of most other people. I don't really have a solution I feel like I can fully get behind either other than piecemeal stuff that shows up on the ballot form time to time.

 

[LogGrad98]

No group, conservative or progressive, "confronts" the "sins" of its past. None of them do. That is never what this is about. It is different groups trying to whitewash their troublesome past and current policies by believing they are on some holier ground than the people they despise. Everyone is always interested in showing what THOSE other people are wrong about.

When do you ever see, "these are the things that I adopted in my personal life to hate others a little less today? "

Well I just go the opposite route and work on hating everyone equally. But usually my pissy neighbor the most. I can tell you some of the things I've done in my personal life to hate him more. It's not hard. If you look up douchebag in the dictionary it just refers you to his picture.

 

[MVP]

apparently Dillon Brooks family was a target of racist insults too

Report: Utah Jazz fans were calling Dillon Brooks' family 'half-breeds' - Ahn Fire Digital

Tee Morant, father of Memphis Grizzlies star Ja Morant, revealed to ESPN that three Utah Jazz fans had made racist comments to him and his wife, Jamie, during Game 2 of the first-round series between the Grizzlies and Jazz on Wednesday.

ahnfiredigital.com

 

[One Brow]

Last 5 years are calling, they clearly prove you wrong.

I know you love to show off how ignorant you are of the reality of many people's lives, but I assure you we are all convinced.

Yes, overall, the people who hate Trump are much more accepting of human differences, human variation, and differences in opinion than the Trump followers.

 

[One Brow]

You hate him cause CNN and MSNBC told you to. It's okay that you don't believe that is why but it is absolutely the truth.

Since I never watch CNN nor MSNBC, why do I think he's a horrible person?

 

[Jazzman12]

The LDS church has taken a very forward stance on racism in regards to talks on it in general conferences, donations to groups such as the NCAA, and all kinds of church media and short videos talking about the need for unity and charity etc. IMO the leaders are very aware, I believe it’s very influenced by an ignorance factor that stems from lack of diversity in the Mountain West. Any ideas that the church is perpetuating any form of racism is blatantly false.

I hate to be “that guy”, but the church is still doing as much harm as it is good when it comes to spreading hate and fear. Look at the recent church failings on gay issues such as the Prop 8 fiasco in California, followed up by inflicting undue pain and distress on Mormon children that come from same sex households.
We could also get into the black priesthood issues that still looms large in church history. Just because the priesthood decision was reversed in 1978 doesn’t mean a switch was magically flipped and everything was suddenly A-Ok for black people living in Utah. I agree with many in here that the racism taking place in Utah is born out of ignorance- quick side note, I didn’t attend school with a black person until Jr. High. That in and of itself set me up for a certain amount of ignorance and blind spots regardless of whether or not I could see that at the time. The fact still remains: Ignorance of the racial issues that have haunted this country since it’s inception is still racism.

I come from a family that is half LDS, half non-LDS and some of the finest people in my life, whom I love dearly are devout members. I really try to give the church the benefit of the doubt whenever I can but I really do feel that the above criticisms are fair and accurate. I don’t think anybody expects the church to be perfect but when you make a post about the church taking a “Very Forward Stance” when it comes to equality, well there’s probably not a very nice way to say it, but that’s just BS. You can’t pick and choose what groups of people you’re going to take a forward stance on while continuing to discriminate against others and then turn around and pat yourself on the back for being progressive.

 

[The Thriller]

Didnt something similar happen to Westbrook a year or so ago? Sounds like we’re seeing a pattern here. A disturbing pattern.

Glad other fans bought his dad a beer and weren’t assholes. Not all Jazz fans are racist redneck trumpers. Although, this story probably doesn’t help our image. Seems like every year now we’re having issues with white fans saying racist things to black players/their families.