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Zach Lowe on Jazz' starting lineup

Quin's Murderface said:
I really disagree with this take. In this system Rubio is a gigantic schematic problem offensively. He doesn't fill any of the roles well in the half court. Bad shooter, Bad finisher, Bad off the ball, System doesn't want guards to rebound very often. He has to change who he is as a player in order to be a good fit here, and I'm very doubtful that he can do it.
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Rubio is a problem mostly due to:
The fact that the starting lineup we use has no other shot creator besides Mitchell.
The best shooter in the starting lineup often passes up open shots for worse shots.
Our PF offers little to no spacing and isnt a transition threat.
Our center has been out of the lineup most of the season and hasnt been able to build a proper repertoire with him.

Also, the system doesnt want guards to rebound? What? I mean, Quin only sends two to the glass for offensive rebounds, but no system exist where they tell players not to defensive rebound. Rubio made a huge impact on the Detroit game with his defensive rebounding. A lot of our defensive issues have been guys like Hood, Johnson, and Ingles being lazy AF on the defensive boards. Rubio just does a ton of little things on the court that help the team win (he also has the best +/- in the clutch this year). I think there is a bigger potential reward to sticking with Rubio and seeing how other moves would impact him and the team (stretch 4, shooting wing) than just giving up on him.

And yes, I know all the advanced Rubio stats have been terrible this year regarding the teammate impact thing, but that just shows how hard he is to team build with. You can't just put him with anyone. The good news is that the moves we need to improve the team are the same moves that would improve Rubio's impact (getting a stretch 4 and a wing who actually wants to get his shot off).
 
hgb said:
Additionally, lots of people, like Quin, Harpring, etc seem to give him quite a lot of props (in addition to acknowledging his poor shooting). He does a lot of good on the court, but he bloody well needs to start shooting better. If the previous season's anything to go by, he might just start picking up soon. I still have hopes in Ricky.
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As a shooter this is who he is... if he reduced his turnovers and was the defensive menace I hoped we'd get then you can live with his poor shooting.
 
infection said:
The only alternative is building a roster that plays to his strengths. That would be asinine. We didn’t even do that for AK.
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Improving the roster and building a roster that plays to Rubio's strengths are the same thing though. Ignoring the PG position, every move the fan base wants is one that would be made w/ Rubio in mind.
 
What do Jazz fans want:
A stretch 4
Another scoring wing, preferably a 3.
Improved athleticism (no more Joe Johnson types)

Those are all things that Rubio would need to be a positive impact kind of player again.
 
Getting a stretch four helps, but Rubio will still be a drag offensively... he's expensive and if we can't relegate him to backup duty without losing him then I'm out.

We could play someone that can spot up with a stretch four and be fairly good on offense without losing a lot of other things.

If we could get an expiring contract for him right now we should do it without hesitating.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
What do Jazz fans want:
A stretch 4
Another scoring wing, preferably a 3.
Improved athleticism (no more Joe Johnson types)

Those are all things that Rubio would need to be a positive impact kind of player again.
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And they are all things that having a $15M cap spot could help to find.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Quin tried to change the lineup, then Hood got hurt in the first game.
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How does swapping out Hood for Ingles address the spacing issued created by starting Rubio, Favors and Gobert together?

Playing those 3 at the same time is the issue.
While it's unfair to say Rubio is the entire problem, we have seen times when Gobert and Favors have co-existed, although I would argue that Rudy's increasing role in the P&R has made it less optimal than a few years ago when Rudy would just get out of the way and score off OR's.

I think swapping out Hood for Ingles was more of a final evaluation of Rodney to see if he could be utilized in a SF role. Also showcases him as a starter for trade purposes. Well, it would have had he not bruised his shin again.
 
Jack Strop said:
How does swapping out Hood for Ingles address the spacing issued created by starting Rubio, Favors and Gobert together?
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Hood's trigger is quicker, meaning when you throw him a pass and he is open, he is going to shoot it, not pass it to a guy w/ 5 seconds left on the shot clock. Does it solve the spacing issue? No, but it can take advantage of the vertical spacing that comes from 2 bigs.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
The Jazz should be looking at 2019, not 2018 free agency. The 15 million isnt really significant.
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Oh my bad... so we will add what Rubio needs to be successful when he hits FA and leaves. If we dumped Rubio we could play in both FA periods... FA sometimes requires a few attempts to get someone.
 
I agree on the points re: adding shooters. But I'd also add that I think DM is the playmaker of the future and a good shooter and secondary ballhandler like Fisher used to be in LA for Kobe would be optimal.

Having 3 shooters on the floor would be great. Having a 4th who can hit 3's is even better. I hope Dante is that guy to replace Rubio. Obtain Mirotic. Replace Jingles with a scorer and have Joe come off the bench. I don't see a spot for Hood.
 
Jack Strop said:
I agree on the points re: adding shooters. But I'd also add that I think DM is the playmaker of the future and a good shooter and secondary ballhandler like Fisher used to be in LA for Kobe would be optimal.

Having 3 shooters on the floor would be great. Having a 4th who can hit 3's is even better. I hope Dante is that guy to replace Rubio. Obtain Mirotic. Replace Jingles with a scorer and have Joe come off the bench. I don't see a spot for Hood.
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I'd start DM at pg and use him like Harden. Start Hood and Ingles and a stretch four. Ingles isn't the issue in the starting lineup... I think he is better there as a connecting piece. Sub out Rubio for Hood and add Mirotic and I think you are in business.
 
Sure, you can add a stretch four and it would make the Rubio fit better but you’re still stuck with answering the question of what’s better than that — and that answer is Gobert and four floor spacers. Even plugging in a Patrick Beverley (defense aside) would significantly improve the offense, with or without a stretch four.
 
infection said:
Sure, you can add a stretch four and it would make the Rubio fit better but you’re still stuck with answering the question of what’s better than that — and that answer is Gobert and four floor spacers. Even plugging in a Patrick Beverley (defense aside) would significantly improve the offense, with or without a stretch four.
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I'm sure if we could trade him for an expiring contract we would... my guess is the holdup is no team would do a straight expiring for him.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Rubio is a problem mostly due to:
The fact that the starting lineup we use has no other shot creator besides Mitchell.
The best shooter in the starting lineup often passes up open shots for worse shots.
Our PF offers little to no spacing and isnt a transition threat.
Our center has been out of the lineup most of the season and hasnt been able to build a proper repertoire with him.

Also, the system doesnt want guards to rebound? What? I mean, Quin only sends two to the glass for offensive rebounds, but no system exist where they tell players not to defensive rebound. Rubio made a huge impact on the Detroit game with his defensive rebounding. A lot of our defensive issues have been guys like Hood, Johnson, and Ingles being lazy AF on the defensive boards. Rubio just does a ton of little things on the court that help the team win (he also has the best +/- in the clutch this year). I think there is a bigger potential reward to sticking with Rubio and seeing how other moves would impact him and the team (stretch 4, shooting wing) than just giving up on him.

And yes, I know all the advanced Rubio stats have been terrible this year regarding the teammate impact thing, but that just shows how hard he is to team build with. You can't just put him with anyone. The good news is that the moves we need to improve the team are the same moves that would improve Rubio's impact (getting a stretch 4 and a wing who actually wants to get his shot off).
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Sure the rebounding thing was a minor point, but I'm just saying that his strength there is a bit neutered offensively. I think your other points are all ok, but the main problem I have with them is that Rubio is a terrible PnR partner for Gobert no matter who else you put around them. Teams are just always going to stay home on shooters and Gobert and make rubio beat them. I don't see how that gets fixed no matter what.

If the Jazz keep Rubio past the deadline then I'm fine giving him a test run for the last half of the season with a stretch 4. But if he can't shoot better AND he can't finish better at the rim I don't see how he ever fits well. He'll always limit what you can do in this system. He'll even limit what DM can do with the ball in his hands (which we will want to happen a lot) because he's such a bad floor spacer. I just don't see the point of trying so hard to make a marginal player fit in.
 
Let's trade Rubio for Fournier, start Mitchell and Fournier in the back court, and see what happens the rest of the season. Maybe Favors/Gobert will work still, and we can resign Favs on the cheap this offseason.
 
David Stern said:
Let's trade Rubio for Fournier, start Mitchell and Fournier in the back court, and see what happens the rest of the season. Maybe Favors/Gobert will work still, and we can resign Favs on the cheap this offseason.
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Done. Now all we need to do is Jedi mind trick Orlando.
 
This does suck. Rubio is easy to cheer for, great off the court and hustles whenever he is on the court. I was really hoping his shooting inefficiency was overstated, but it is not. I am not sure Rubio is an effective starter in todays NBA (unless he has four shooters I guess).

I would trade Rubio for an expiring or I would use his contract to get someone in a longer contract that a team wants to "dump". Like: Rubio / Hood for Evan Fournier (I don't want to get in all the trade details, but those would be the principle parts.)

If Rubio stays, he might have to swallow his pride and go to the bench. Perhaps he can finish at the rim when he is playing against the second unit.

For basketball purposes, I would rather trade Rubio than Burks. Burks can at least shoot the ball decently.
 
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