This season will vindicate Ty Corbin

[b_line]

Ok I'm bored of being bored. Gonna go take a suspiciously long shower.

Dat lag rod been lookin up German porn.

 

[akirac73]

lol, can you imagine Ty coaching this years team? He's thinking "I don't want to play any more damn rookies" then he looks at the bench and realizes he can only play like 5 non rookies. "Trey, Gordon, Derrick, you guys ready for 48 minutes?"

Kendrick Perkins would be starting (Tyco would have insisted the Jazz not buy him out)...Gobert goes back to getting 15 minutes a game off the bench.

 

[fishonjazz]

Frank has said he likes Quin better.

frank says right in this post we would be better off this year with Corbin over Quin.

 

[fishonjazz]

People often say that franklin is saying things he's not saying and completely ignoring what he's actually saying.

I didn't like Corbin. I gave him a long long leash because there were a lot of external factors that contributed to his lack of success. Ultimately I decided he wasn't a good coach (because I'm like qualified to assess such things). But franklin has pointed out things he did do well. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Corbin could have been the wrong guy for the job and still have a few things he did well. People don't want to hear that, though. They want to crucify Corbin and condemn every last thing he ever did. Pretty simple way to look at things, but oh well.

But he also says things like
The jazz defense didn't improve until kanter was traded.

Then gets proven wrong and changes his argument and never admits he was wrong about anything.
He says Corbin would do better this year with this team, yet says he prefers quin?


He is a dick on this forum plain and simple.
Yet has alot of apologists for some reason.

 

[GVC]

Group-think is stupid, but to suggest that there's somehow a laurel to be granted for contrarianism strictly because it's contrarianism is half-baked and equally stupid.

1. I disagree. I think there's always a place for contrary opinions.

2. I don't think your above post is an accurate characterization of Franklin (in general). Does he overstate contrary opinions? Yes. Does he do it to troll? Yes. But he's also usually willing to engage in intelligent, nuanced discussions and support his stated opinions.

3. It's worth defending Franklin because Jazzfanz is better when he's around.

That's fine. And in this case he was wrong. Dead wrong. As wrong as one can possibly be wrong. And the idea that he was done sort of innocent guy who didn't dish out his fair share of antagonism is comical.

1. So what if he is wrong? In the past, he's engaged in plenty of (reasonably) respectful, intelligent basketball discussions. As far as I'm concerned, those discussions are far more valuable than bumped threads that serve no other purpose than to deride people for making bad predictions, idiotic memes, and the (other) ad hominem junk that has become the norm on JF.

2. I never claimed Franklin was an innocent bystander.

 

[GVC]

Then gets proven wrong and changes his argument and never admits he was wrong about anything.

What purpose would that serve?

Yet has alot of apologists for some reason.

Some reason? Franklin is a pretty analytical/critical dude. Some of us prefer good discussion to dick jokes.

 

[GVC]

Perfect Example. For those defending this troll...Please tell me how. He says right in this post we would be better off this year with Corbin over Quin. Completely ignoring that half the players on this team quit on him last year. Claims we would be better off because of continuity but fails to accept that the team quit on Corbin. Hayward is having a banner year because Corbin no longer here. Favors if having his best year on both ends of the floor because Corbin is no longer here. Exum would be rotting away on the bench behind both Burke and Clark if Corbin was here. Because Corbin did not value defensive talent and Exum does not look good on offense.

You couldn't choose a counterfactual in a more self-serving way. Congrats.

 

[The Midnight]

And yes I am bored, German TV sucks, and so I decided to just go through this thread and respond to (nearly) random posts.

Ok I'm bored of being bored. Gonna go take a suspiciously long shower.

LOL... was just gonna say, I hardly saw you in the Jazz forum before.

 

[GVC]

Does it matter if it's the X's and O's or if it's just an environment that the players have bought into? Either way, it's Quin that has brought it to the team.

There are other external factors worth considering:

1. In 2012/13, Ty was given a lame duck team. The FO decided to ride it out instead of making the moves to hand the team over to the young players.

2. In 2013/14, Ty was a lame duck coach who everyone thought was on the way out. As a player, that approach by the FO - near obvious tanking, with a scape goat coach - can't possibly instill confidence.

 

[fishonjazz]

Some reason? Franklin is a pretty analytical/critical dude. Some of us prefer good discussion to dick jokes.

dick jokes > acting like a dick most of the time

 

[GVC]

Corbin never had a fair shake here or in Sactown (especially there) but imo Snyder is clearly better simply by the improvement he has been able to generate that Corbin has not. And Corbin's team quit and Snyders is full of fight.

For me, it's tough to disentangle the effect Snyder has had from the different situations and the year-over-year individual growth of the players on the roster:

1. How much did Corbin's near certain impending departure affect the players' confidence last season? How did it affect their willingness to buy into what Ty was trying to do?

2. How much of Hayward's and Favors' growth was due to having a year of experience and failure in lead roles, as opposed to Snyder's coaching/teaching? If Snyder's the one driving development, what's wrong with Trey and Enes?

 

[GVC]

Quin was given a far more daunting task this year that Corbin ever was.

********:

1. The Jazz's lead players last season were Gordo, Favors, Kanter, Burks and Burke. All of them were handed much larger roles than they had had in prior seasons. They all came into this season with virtually the same roles as last season, but with an additional year of experience.

2. Pretty much everyone knew Ty was on the way out at the start of last season. Quin came in with a fresh slate.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

For me, it's tough to disentangle the effect Snyder has had from the different situations and the year-over-year individual growth of the players on the roster:

1. How much did Corbin's near certain impending departure affect the players' confidence last season? How did it affect their willingness to buy into what Ty was trying to do?

2. How much of Hayward's and Favors' growth was due to having a year of experience and failure in lead roles, as opposed to Snyder's coaching/teaching? If Snyder's the one driving development, what's wrong with Trey and Enes?

It's the change of offensive system that is helping Favors/Hayward the most. That same system doesn't fit Kanter and Burke, who are use to dominating the ball too much.

 

[GVC]

Corbin was not on board with what needed to happen here. We had veterans here that should have been helping and coming off the bench (in most cases). Instead of making the development of our young guys the priority, he took every opportunity to lean on the veterans to try to squeak out a few wins.

The veterans on the team all filled complementary roles. Enes and Alec had larger roles than either RJ or Marvin last season. Having all the young guys starting together last season would have limited the amount of time each had on-ball.

 

[GVC]

IMO development is a factor of PT, coaching, and of course skill-set, talent, physical ability, maturity, drive, etc. Say individual ability. You will develop to whatever level of the first 2 you receive combined with the 3rd. So let's assume the 3rd one is solid, like most rookies taken in the first say 10 picks. If you are getting little PT but great coaching you will develop some, but you can only learn so much without time to put it into practice. If you are getting tons of PT and no coaching maybe the same, although then the worry of bad habits sets in. If you are getting plenty of PT to put learned skills into practice combined with solid coaching both in practice sessions and in-game, then it stands to reason you will enjoy the greatest development as a player, up to your personal threshold. There comes a point of course when coaching starts to mean less and personal will to improve is what drives the improvements. But in the first couple of years for a high pick it is hard to argue that PT does not matter as much as coaching. Look at Kobe for example. Had the physical ability and talent, was given PT and good coaching. Didn't turn out too bad when his personal drive started defining his play. Would he have been the same player if he had spent most of his time on the bench his first 2 seasons, or in the D-league? Tough to say.

I'd argue the role, responsibilities and situations a player is put in matter. That is, you want to put players in appropriate situations/roles to apply what they've learned in situations where they aren't totally overwhelmed. Development is a gradual process IMO.

 

[Stoked]

For me, it's tough to disentangle the effect Snyder has had from the different situations and the year-over-year individual growth of the players on the roster:

1. How much did Corbin's near certain impending departure affect the players' confidence last season? How did it affect their willingness to buy into what Ty was trying to do?

2. How much of Hayward's and Favors' growth was due to having a year of experience and failure in lead roles, as opposed to Snyder's coaching/teaching? If Snyder's the one driving development, what's wrong with Trey and Enes?

Of course there are different factors. Different players, styles of coaching, different FOs, internal development, surrounding staff...

But at the end of the day Snyder is producing when, for whatever reason, Corbin did not.

If nothing else Snyder has shown he is better at:

timeout usage

in-game adjustments

tailoring his offense and defense to his personell

developing his personell

communicating with his players (based ont eh different tone of comments from press and personell)

Edit: I also think Snyder benefits from better player management from Lindsey when Corbin had KOC

 

[LogGrad98]

I'd argue the role, responsibilities and situations a player is put in matter. That is, you want to put players in appropriate situations/roles to apply what they've learned in situations where they aren't totally overwhelmed. Development is a gradual process IMO.

To me that is called coaching. And yes development doesn't happen overnight. But it can't happen in a vacuum either. You could be the most knowledgeable person on the planet about deep sea diving. You could be a renowned expert who is asked constantly to lecture on the subject. You could have read every book, written most of them yourself and talked to and learned from the best in the business. But if you never get in the water you both stand a good chance of drowning once you finally do, and also wasted the knowledge you gained.

 

[GVC]

To me that is called coaching. And yes development doesn't happen overnight. But it can't happen in a vacuum either. You could be the most knowledgeable person on the planet about deep sea diving. You could be a renowned expert who is asked constantly to lecture on the subject. You could have read every book, written most of them yourself and talked to and learned from the best in the business. But if you never get in the water you both stand a good chance of drowning once you finally do, and also wasted the knowledge you gained.

My point was that you can have too much playing time, or playing time in detrimental situations/roles. But yeah, having opportunities to apply what you've learned in situations that matter is incredibly important.

 

[franklin]

But he also says things like
The jazz defense didn't improve until kanter was traded.

Then gets proven wrong and changes his argument and never admits he was wrong about anything.
He says Corbin would do better this year with this team, yet says he prefers quin?


He is a dick on this forum plain and simple.
Yet has alot of apologists for some reason.

This form of disingenuous, pretend-to-care trolling from you has made the forum damn near unreadable. You should know when to stop, but still you don't. 100's of posts a day full of nothing but. Your spam trolling is overloading and crowds out anything worth reading.

Interesting exchange here. I forgot to multiquote so here is the one this is a response to:

It took Gobert what, about 1/3 of a season to really get going. Could he have done that last year with a solid chunk of starters minutes to get him going? Good question. I think there is a decent chance that it would have helped him a lot. What if he were at current, or close to current, form at the start of this season due to extra PT last year to work out the kinks?

I think that's worth wondering over, but at the end of the day I don't buy it. Don't forget these guys practice more than they play, and it's not going to click in game if it's not clicking in practice. Besides, if he was given more minutes last season then who do they get taken away from without hurting the rest of the young players?

It's the change of offensive system that is helping Favors/Hayward the most. That same system doesn't fit Kanter and Burke, who are use to dominating the ball too much.

Completely disagree. Favors is getting the same looks as last year. This year he is converting a whole lot better. Hayward quit playing like a little bitch, preferring long twos over drives, and soft *** faders when he did drive. Quin's system might benefit him, but the vast majority of improvement came from Hayward. I still think he tanked last season anyway.

 

[franklin]

What's going on here is Nate, Zman, fish, ellis, gregbroncs, etc. spent 2 years and 9 months bitching that Ty didn't play Kanter. Now that Ty has been vindicated they prefer to double down on the hate and sling endless insults my way instead of admitting Ty was right and they were wrong. Couldn't have been more wrong.

Wipe the egg off your faces guys.