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Move On From Hayward?

Thee jazz fan said:
My feeling is that Hayward has played his entire career under a rebuilding team, and had he played for the Spurs, Thunder or some other playoff team, he'd be a multiple time allstar. Hell, it took Deron on a very good team four years to make an allstar team. There are a lot of good players that wish they could put up the numbers Hayward does. He is vastly underrated by his own fans.

He has been held back by the fact that he plays on a rebuilding team wher all focus is on stopping him and he doesn't get noticed as he plays in Utah. I don't see him as a low end allstar.


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Ok I get that argument but aren't there other guys who were all stars on bad teams? Kevin love was a top level all star in Minnesota. Got on a better team and suddenly don't look so good. Could that be the case with Hayward? Idk.

Boogie is on a crappy rebuilding team right? All star.
Anthony Davis team was horrible this season yet was an all star.
John wall, pau gasol and Jimmy butler missed the playoffs (iirc) and were each all stars.
Isaiah Thomas played on a crappy rebuilding team and was an all star and carried them to the playoffs.

There are lots of excuses for Hayward. He is max money already and his next contract is gonna be crazy huge. I'm tired of the excuses if he is going to command that money.
I like Hayward. He is probably the best player on the team right now. Still
 
Love Hayward, but he's not max material. In 3 years, Hood and Lyles will be more important. Hayward wilts in pressure moments and doesn't do anything at an elite level.

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fishonjazz said:
Ok I get that argument but aren't there other guys who were all stars on bad teams? Kevin love was a top level all star in Minnesota. Got on a better team and suddenly don't look so good. Could that be the case with Hayward? Idk.

Boogie is on a crappy rebuilding team right? All star.
Anthony Davis team was horrible this season yet was an all star.
John wall, pau gasol and Jimmy butler missed the playoffs (iirc) and were each all stars.
Isaiah Thomas played on a crappy rebuilding team and was an all star and carried them to the playoffs.

There are lots of excuses for Hayward. He is max money already and his next contract is gonna be crazy huge. I'm tired of the excuses if he is going to command that money.
I like Hayward. He is probably the best player on the team right now. Still
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Chris Kaman was an all star. That must mean he's better than Hayward. Trade Haywards *** and lets go get Kaman .. we wouldn't have to give up much ! Kobe was an all star .. surely that means that this year he was a better player than Gordon ??
 
LoPo said:
Love Hayward, but he's not max material. In 3 years, Hood and Lyles will be more important. Hayward wilts in pressure moments and doesn't do anything at an elite level.

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LoPo said:
Love Hayward, but he's not max material. In 3 years, Hood and Lyles will be more important. Hayward wilts in pressure moments and doesn't do anything at an elite level.

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Unfortunately the cold hard facts disagree with you. Statistically Hayward is pretty good in the clutch.

Dude you're just spewing out the same old rubbish that's been talked for the last 4-5 months. Waaaaay behind the times
 
I can't help that.

I get to watch many games but not all. Hayward doesnt impress me at the end of games. His control, poise and command are not that of an alpha dog. I'd love to keep him but not as a max contract #1 guy.

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LoPo said:
I can't help that.

I get to watch many games but not all. Hayward doesnt impress me at the end of games. His control, poise and command are not that of an alpha dog. I'd love to keep him but not as a max contract #1 guy.

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so who are you going to give than money to .. this year .. next year, the year after who will be more productive. be specific. On this Jazz team who is either now a better alpha dog or will be next year or the year after ?

The facts disagree with your observations about poise and control. Very very few players are efficient at the end of games. You do realise he's hit a number of shots and free throws in critical moments this year and last ? And statisically .. FACTS say he's pretty good compared to most players around the league.
 
fishonjazz said:
Ok I get that argument but aren't there other guys who were all stars on bad teams? Kevin love was a top level all star in Minnesota. Got on a better team and suddenly don't look so good. Could that be the case with Hayward? Idk.

Boogie is on a crappy rebuilding team right? All star.
Anthony Davis team was horrible this season yet was an all star.
John wall, pau gasol and Jimmy butler missed the playoffs (iirc) and were each all stars.
Isaiah Thomas played on a crappy rebuilding team and was an all star and carried them to the playoffs.

There are lots of excuses for Hayward. He is max money already and his next contract is gonna be crazy huge. I'm tired of the excuses if he is going to command that money.
I like Hayward. He is probably the best player on the team right now. Still
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Love plays one side of the court. Hayward does everything for this rebuilding team. If not for injuries it's possible he carries this rebuilding team as high as a fifth seed. Did I mention this was a rebuilding team also 4th youngest team in the entire NBA. I believe he will be even better with Exum back and Lyles in his second year, and Hood possibly taking on more responsibility to where teams can't just focus 100% attention on Hayward.


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da ThRONe said:
Stop making excuses. Your argument is that of the exact player Fish described. A fringe All-Star.
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I stated facts. Shut the hell up. We all know you're a well known Hayward hater anyways. Oh and he's doing what he's doing and not even in his prime yet. He's more then a fringe allstar


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Hayward officially not available for trade(or if available, trade him to the Lakers):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH9u1y3qj0E
 
DownUnder said:
so who are you going to give than money to .. this year .. next year, the year after who will be more productive. be specific. On this Jazz team who is either now a better alpha dog or will be next year or the year after ?

The facts disagree with your observations about poise and control. Very very few players are efficient at the end of games. You do realise he's hit a number of shots and free throws in critical moments this year and last ? And statisically .. FACTS say he's pretty good compared to most players around the league.
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These are very good points and questions. Hayward is a good player. But so was AK yet the contract destroyed out chances of building something that could contend. The same could be said about Ostertag long ago. His contract kept us from adding that much needed additional piece.

We can't be scared when we have a solid foundation built and throw money at a guy because we think we can't do better. As Jazz fans, we sometimes pucker up when we shouldn't and throw too much cash when we shouldn't. I just know that Hayward isn't a $25 million player. He's just not. He will never be that guy who carries us with the star power needed to get that 50-50 call. Or be that guy to get emotional to lift the team. Or be the guy to be unstoppable when we need an unstoppable force.

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Thee jazz fan said:
Love plays one side of the court. Hayward does everything for this rebuilding team. If not for injuries it's possible he carries this rebuilding team as high as a fifth seed. Did I mention this was a rebuilding team also 4th youngest team in the entire NBA. I believe he will be even better with Exum back and Lyles in his second year, and Hood possibly taking on more responsibility to where teams can't just focus 100% attention on Hayward.


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Agree to disagree.
He has not improved much at all over his career statistically no matter who his teammates have been. Only thing that has consistently improved are his minutes and salary.
 
LoPo said:
These are very good points and questions. Hayward is a good player. But so was AK yet the contract destroyed out chances of building something that could contend. The same could be said about Ostertag long ago. His contract kept us from adding that much needed additional piece.

We can't be scared when we have a solid foundation built and throw money at a guy because we think we can't do better. As Jazz fans, we sometimes pucker up when we shouldn't and throw too much cash when we shouldn't. I just know that Hayward isn't a $25 million player. He's just not. He will never be that guy who carries us with the star power needed to get that 50-50 call. Or be that guy to get emotional to lift the team. Or be the guy to be unstoppable when we need an unstoppable force.

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Good post.
I especially like the part about "throw money at a guy because we think we can't do better."

One part of your post was wrong though. You said you don't think he is a 25 million dollar guy. Well I saw someone ran the numbers and was saying he would start out at 32 million and finish his last year at like 39 million. That's insane
 
DownUnder said:
Chris Kaman was an all star. That must mean he's better than Hayward. Trade Haywards *** and lets go get Kaman .. we wouldn't have to give up much ! Kobe was an all star .. surely that means that this year he was a better player than Gordon ??
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I didn't say those players were better. Try to read the conversation before getting in it.

Thee jazz fan said that Hayward has not yet been an all star simply because he has been on bad teams.

So I gave examples of other players on bad teams who were all stars. Never said they were better than Hayward like you are insinuating.
 
Thee jazz fan said:
Love plays one side of the court. Hayward does everything for this rebuilding team. If not for injuries it's possible he carries this rebuilding team as high as a fifth seed. Did I mention this was a rebuilding team also 4th youngest team in the entire NBA. I believe he will be even better with Exum back and Lyles in his second year, and Hood possibly taking on more responsibility to where teams can't just focus 100% attention on Hayward.


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You said Hayward has not been an all star cause his teams have sucked. I gave you names of all stars on teams that sucked. Proving you can make the all star team even when the team you play for sucks.
 
Thee jazz fan said:
My feeling is that Hayward has played his entire career under a rebuilding team, and had he played for the Spurs, Thunder or some other playoff team, he'd be a multiple time allstar. Hell, it took Deron on a very good team four years to make an allstar team. There are a lot of good players that wish they could put up the numbers Hayward does. He is vastly underrated by his own fans.

He has been held back by the fact that he plays on a rebuilding team wher all focus is on stopping him and he doesn't get noticed as he plays in Utah. I don't see him as a low end allstar.
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Or he's vastly OVERrated by the homer fans. This post reeks of apologist excuses.
 
So many blind, not-objective apologists on here making excuses for Hayward.

Some people on here try to assess Hayward objectively, rather than blindly praise him and excuse him for the team's continual losses.
And so the homers and apologists call the objective people Hayters. But that's not accurate. I give Hayward props for getting better this past year. He is great defensively. But he's not a #1 and never has been. He is not clutch. He's hit a clutch shot - once or twice, but not consistently. Not enough to justify max money.

So yeah, being objective, if Hayward has value around the league then maybe the Jazz can get something in return for him in a trade - in the hopes of landing a legitimate max money alpha.
 
Are we supposed to trade every player for an "alpha"? This narrative of Hayward is bananas. If the Jazz can keep him they should. If they're not confident they will, they should be proactive. And yeah, if there's a superstar out there and Hayward in the deal gets it done, then do it. But the idea that because Hayward isn't a top-5 player means he can't be worth the max and has to be what amounts to being dumped is ****ing stupid. Objectively.

Who is this superstar that the Jazz will acquire with sucky suck dumb Hayward? It sounds like he should be worth a lot on the market.
 
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