Is Favors in the long-term plans at this point?

[Ron Mexico]

I disagree that the shots are the same. They may be coming from the same place on the floor, but the floor is spaced better and teams are not as easily clogging the paint. So they hedge a little farther from the shooter to help with the paint. Which is opening up the shooter to have more room to get good looks on the perimeter without feeling rushed or defended.

Statistically the spacing is the same.

 

[Goodluckchuck]

If Favors wants to be here and a part of this team and is ok with 25 mins a night and being back up center. You do that in a heart beat. We would destroy teams if he agreed to that. But this day and age pride and the almighty dollar is what matters most


Sent from my iPhone using JazzFanz

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Cool, moves.

Gobert is super tall and can dunk. He does that really well and is one of the most efficient offensive players.

I like his dunk move... it’s pretty effective

 

[stitches]

Cool, moves.

Gobert is super tall and can dunk. He does that really well and is one of the most efficient offensive players.

He's super efficient and super limited. He needs close to 100% of his offense to be created for him and an offense can create just so much for its center. Last year he was pushing the limits of his offensive production and I think he's found the limit. Now having Rubio as a pair with him eliminates even more of his offensive share because Rubio can't seem to find him in the PnR consistently enough(he was having 33% TOV in the PnR while Gobert was playing).

I'm not knocking Gobert's offensive output for this team - he does what he does at a very very high level, just noting how limited what he does is.

 

[Aneurism]

I'm not knocking Gobert's offensive output for this team - he does what he does at a very very high level, just noting how limited what he does is.

I think Gobert is at his best and most efficient when people aren't attempting to pass the ball to him when they drive (unless he has a clear path for a dunk).. Put back dunks on offensive boards are how he should be scoring.. (If he can get 3-4 putback dunks, and a couple of free throws.. that would be 10 silent points. If everyone else were looking to score, then they would have to sag off him more and increases his chances for an offensive board).

 

[b_line]

Big Al ****ing sucked, BTW. **** that era of dumbass ogre ball.

Yep. Hated that team except Millsap.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

He's super efficient and super limited. He needs close to 100% of his offense to be created for him and an offense can create just so much for its center. Last year he was pushing the limits of his offensive production and I think he's found the limit. Now having Rubio as a pair with him eliminates even more of his offensive share because Rubio can't seem to find him in the PnR consistently enough(he was having 33% TOV in the PnR while Gobert was playing).

I'm not knocking Gobert's offensive output for this team - he does what he does at a very very high level, just noting how limited what he does is.

Uhh, we havent even seen Rubio w/ Gobert w/ a floor spacing PF. To say he reached his limit is comical.

And Favors needs close to 100% of his offense created for him too.

 

[stitches]

Uhh, we havent even seen Rubio w/ Gobert w/ a floor spacing PF. To say he reached his limit is comical.

And Favors needs close to 100% of his offense created for him too.

It's not comical. If teams were able to generate 100% of their offense as dunks on cuts or in the pnr they will. They cannot do it. There are limits to what an offense generates for its centers... Those are limits of execution, limits of the defense actually preventing you from doing what you want, limits of the system itself, limits of the offensive skillset of the player, etc. I would be shocked if Gobert ever has significantly better offensive production than he did last year. Unless of course he expands his game. With the offensive skill level right now he is extremely limited in what he does and just how much more he can do. Here's the distribution of his offensive possessions by play type:
-ISO 1.8%
-transition 7%
-PnR 21%
-postups 4.2%
-spot up 1.3%
-cuts - 30%
-pubacks 21.8%
-Misc - 12.8%

The bolded ones are some of the most efficient possessions in basketball. If the Jazz wanted and could create more of them for Rudy they would simply because it would be stupid to not give a highly efficient finisher in those situation all the opportunities to finish high efficiency shots for the team. Those account for 80% of his offense! Misc are weird possessions they don't know how to qualify and most centers have about the same number and they are very low efficiency possessions. So that makes it 93% of his offense accounted for and extremely hard to increase the output in. This is what I mean - the rest are the on-ball possessions(isolations and postups) and spot ups. In order for Gobert to increase his offensive output, he needs to expand his offensive skillset to include more possessions in those areas. Otherwise it's not going to happen simply because he's already one of the best centers in the league finishing in transition, pnr on cuts and putbacks. There is very very little possible improvement he can make in those areas, he's already extremely efficient in them. The one area he can realistically improve is his FT shooting.

So to summarize. If we want Gobert to improve his offensive production the 3 areas are:
-off-ball offense(created by others or putbacks) - he's already at the top in those! Extremely hard to go even higher and extremely hard for an offense to generate more looks of this sort.
-on-ball offense - he needs to expand his game for this one to generate increased offensive production
-FTs... this is the only realistic one.

 

[The Jazz Wonderbra]

How much is Favors going to cost if we resign him and what will that do towards getting an All Star? My guess is he gets $15 million - $18 million in this league. At that rate, we have our team folks. I say we can develop someone from the draft better and for a lot less at the stretch 4 spot or at the 20 - 25 minutes off the bench and that we are better off getting something for him now. Jerebko and Udoh can take up the backup center and stretch 4 minutes that Favors currently gets when Gobert returns.

But I'll say that the board seems to be more split on Favors than most topics on Jazzfanz. It's not as clear cut as some other things.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

It's not comical. If teams were able to generate 100% of their offense as dunks on cuts or in the pnr they will. They cannot do it. There are limits to what an offense generates for its centers... Those are limits of execution, limits of the defense actually preventing you from doing what you want, limits of the system itself, limits of the offensive skillset of the player, etc. I would be shocked if Gobert ever has significantly better offensive production than he did last year. Unless of course he expands his game. With the offensive skill level right now he is extremely limited in what he does and just how much more he can do. Here's the distribution of his offensive possessions by play type:
-ISO 1.8%
-transition 7%
-PnR 21%
-postups 4.2%
-spot up 1.3%
-cuts - 30%
-pubacks 21.8%
-Misc - 12.8%

The bolded ones are some of the most efficient possessions in basketball. If the Jazz wanted and could create more of them for Rudy they would simply because it would be stupid to not give a highly efficient finisher in those situation all the opportunities to finish high efficiency shots for the team. Those account for 80% of his offense! Misc are weird possessions they don't know how to qualify and most centers have about the same number and they are very low efficiency possessions. So that makes it 93% of his offense accounted for and extremely hard to increase the output in. This is what I mean - the rest are the on-ball possessions(isolations and postups) and spot ups. In order for Gobert to increase his offensive output, he needs to expand his offensive skillset to include more possessions in those areas. Otherwise it's not going to happen simply because he's already one of the best centers in the league finishing in transition, pnr on cuts and putbacks. There is very very little possible improvement he can make in those areas, he's already extremely efficient in them. The one area he can realistically improve is his FT shooting.

So to summarize. If we want Gobert to improve his offensive production the 3 areas are:
-off-ball offense(created by others or putbacks) - he's already at the top in those! Extremely hard to go even higher and extremely hard for an offense to generate more looks of this sort.
-on-ball offense - he needs to expand his game for this one to generate increased offensive production
-FTs... this is the only realistic one.

Umm, no. He can improve offensively more than those 3 ways. Becoming a better passer, a smarter player, playing with a stretch 4 100% of the time, increasing his touch around the basket, continuing to work on his deep post moves and footwork on short rolls, continuing to work on his FT line jumper (h has hit 2/2 his year).

And I dont want to hear about realistic. Andre Drummond tripled his assist rate this year. Improvements can happen.

 

[candrew]

I think QS's offensive vision is 4 guys stretching the floor and 1 big man in the paint setting a million picks/switches for each other.

Favors doesn't fit that model as long as Gobert has a pulse. I think if they can get a worthwhile asset they'll trade him; but the odds are they let his contract expire and he signs elsewhere.

As far as trades are concerned, I think The Jazz hope Burks can play well enough for them to trade him and O'Neal can play well enough to replace him in the rotation.

And trading Joe Johnson to a contender would probably be the right thing to do. I believe Houston has Memphis' second round pick this year. Should be a mid-30's pick. I'd take that.

 

[stitches]

Umm, no. He can improve offensively more than those 3 ways. Becoming a better passer, a smarter player, playing with a stretch 4 100% of the time, increasing his touch around the basket, continuing to work on his deep post moves and footwork on short rolls, continuing to work on his FT line jumper (h has hit 2/2 his year).

And I dont want to hear about realistic. Andre Drummond tripled his assist rate this year. Improvements can happen.

I was talking mainly about his scoring numbers. I agree his assists can improve. Deep post moves are still included in the post moves(and they would still be extremely small % of his possessions), short rolls are included in the pnr numbers, FT line jumper is included in either the pnr or the spot up numbers(depends on how he gets those). That's why I said he needs to improve and expand his game in order for us to see significant improvements in his offensive output.

BTW those are mainly numbers from last year when he played a lot of his minutes with stretchy 'bigs' like Joe Johnson, because Favors was injured for most of the year and was playing a ton of minutes behind Gobert rather than with him.

 

[franklin]

Statistically the spacing is the same.

Interested in where you get this from. It seems right with the exception that the Jazz are obviously focused on getting quick shots off from 3. They're shooting deep a lot of times and every player obviously has the green light, even Rudio.

They don't need as much spacing when they can shoot fast (Ingles, Hood, Mitchell).

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I was talking mainly about his scoring numbers. I agree his assists can improve. Deep post moves are still included in the post moves(and they would still be extremely small % of his possessions), short rolls are included in the pnr numbers, FT line jumper is included in either the pnr or the spot up numbers(depends on how he gets those). That's why I said he needs to improve and expand his game in order for us to see significant improvements in his offensive output.

BTW those are mainly numbers from last year when he played a lot of his minutes with stretchy 'bigs' like Joe Johnson, because Favors was injured for most of the year and was playing a ton of minutes behind Gobert rather than with him.

Gobert played 40% of his minutes with Joe Johnson on the court last year. I said 100%. Johnson was our only true shooter who could play the 4. This year we have Jerebko and kind of Thabo, along with JJ when he gets healthy, so that could realistically happen if they trade Favors.

 

[Coach Ellis]

How much is Favors going to cost if we resign him and what will that do towards getting an All Star? My guess is he gets $15 million - $18 million in this league. At that rate, we have our team folks. I say we can develop someone from the draft better and for a lot less at the stretch 4 spot or at the 20 - 25 minutes off the bench and that we are better off getting something for him now. Jerebko and Udoh can take up the backup center and stretch 4 minutes that Favors currently gets when Gobert returns.

But I'll say that the board seems to be more split on Favors than most topics on Jazzfanz. It's not as clear cut as some other things.

If Favors only costs the Jazz $15-18 million per year, I’d probably prefer to keep him (if he can keep it up after Rudy comes back AND he can ray healthy.) Cut Rudy’s minutes (to about 28/30) to keep him fresh and healthy for the playoffs and have Favors split his time between the 5 and 4 spots. When Gobert/Favors man the frontcourt together, I’d do it in the 2nd quarter - and with Jingles, Hood and Mitchell on the floor with them. They’d have to cut Udoh’s minutes, but he’d get a bump when either guy needs a game off or extra rest and is nice insurance to have if needed (especially at his cost). Favors is fine in the midrange, and as long as they don’t have Rubio out there, I think it could work better if they stagger the center minutes between the two and never have them both out of the game at the same time.

Jazz can look to add talent through the draft (Gobert, Hood, Mitchell, Neto) or minor value free agency additions (Jingles, JJ, Sefalosha, Jerebko, Booker, Udoh, Carroll and Bazemore) or by using a combination of salary matching and assets to make a bigger move. Don’t see them adding a key free agent outside of a sign and trade along those lines.

 

[Engorged On Unborn Gore]

i) Gobert is not getting traded. Overrated or not (not), he is the the most indispensable player on the team.

ii) Players that are similarly indispensable in a way that complements Gobert: Mitchell

iii) Players that project to be valuable to the team, but that can likely be had at a discount because of unfair circumstances: Exum

iv) Role players that complement the above in Snyder's system, and that will likely be kept: Hood, Ingles, Sefolosha, Udoh, Jerebko, Neto.

v) Talented players that do not adequately complement the above, but that could fetch assets in trade: Favors, Johnson, Burks, Rubio.

Ergo, trade as many players in section v as you can, for as many picks (not as likely) and/or complementary players (more likely) as you can.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Interested in where you get this from. It seems right with the exception that the Jazz are obviously focused on getting quick shots off from 3. They're shooting deep a lot of times and every player obviously has the green light, even Rudio.

They don't need as much spacing when they can shoot fast (Ingles, Hood, Mitchell).

The stats come from NBA.com.

I think spacing problem got exacerbated by us missing shots. Teams early stopped guessing us and we kept missing. Now we are hitting a few in a row so teams are coming out to guard us which gives us better inside looks. But statistically those inside looks are almost never wide open like the outside shots, just open. So there is probably a difference in spacing that isn't showing up in stats.

We don't have a star player or an elite shot creator. We have to get our shots that the system is getting us. I think the biggest difference is that Hood is hitting his shots now and Mitchell is as well. Those guys were not earlier. That had more to do with it than Gobert being out. If we hit a lot of threes the paint will be wide open and defenses will be scrambled chasing the ball in our offense. If not teams will just park and watch us move the ball around the outside.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

So here is the deal... Favs won’t get more than the mid level exception. What team with space will want him and what will they pay him?

I’ve done the exercise where we try and trade him but there aren’t a lot of starting spots available for him. The same issue will exist in free agency.

Here’s the other deal... he may take a mid level deal and he may except a bench role with another team but not with us... it’s a pride thing and he will need another team to say “ hey you aren’t a max player and some of your limitations make it so we can’t play you with other guys”

Kind of like kanter took the bench role and has been content with it.

There is not a ton of cap space out there and centers aren’t a big priority right now... I think we will all be shocked at the contract offer he gets.

 

[NUMBERICA]

If he can be kept for a bargain contract, great. I just do not see it happening.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

If he can be kept for a bargain contract, great. I just do not see it happening.

He won’t stay here on a bargain though... if that makes sense. Kinda like when Paul left for a really reasonable deal... all things being equal moneywise he would go elsewhere.