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Trade Rumors Involving the Jazz

Yall are too rigid with definitions on positions. The best thing we can do next to Lauri and Kessler is put a long 3 and D wing... full stop. Can you put a PF oriented guy in that lineup? Sure... but not sure that is the best defensive alignment and the PF needs to be able to shoot. Putting perimeter defense and shooting around Lauri/Walker would turn be great... if that SF had some passing chops and playmaking ability then you are cooking with fish oil.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Yall are too rigid with definitions on positions. The best thing we can do next to Lauri and Kessler is put a long 3 and D wing... full stop. Can you put a PF oriented guy in that lineup? Sure... but not sure that is the best defensive alignment and the PF needs to be able to shoot. Putting perimeter defense and shooting around Lauri/Walker would turn be great... if that SF had some passing chops and playmaking ability then you are cooking with fish oil.
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Yes, positional talk is often annoying and convoluted, but in general you want Lauri being guarded by the opposing team's 4 (aka their 2nd tallest/slowest player in most cases). You dont want to give them a non-skilled player to hid weak defensive links on. You dont want to put out a non-shooter that shrinks the court. You dont want Lauri floating too much on the perimeter, you want him to have space to cut/post/drive.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
I mean, we dont know they are that high on Clarkson, the fact just is that Clarkson is more valuable if we re-sign him vs not. Ideally you dont want assets to just walk.
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I guess I’m letting the
HermanG said:
Ok.. so the thing Cavs did to truely get him developing in the right direction and the thing we have done with him most of his breakout year is a bad idea? Why?
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im also confused here… isn’t Lauri a SF?
 
If you can route Vando to Indy for their Houston second (and maybe more seconds) and then send that to Charlotte for McDaniels... I think you could get an extension worked out and i'd be willing to bet he sees the difference between Utah and Charlotte and wants to stay anyway. That's a guy I'd take a swing on and think the price could be reasonable.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Yes, positional talk is often annoying and convoluted, but in general you want Lauri being guarded by the opposing team's 4 (aka their 2nd tallest/slowest player in most cases). You dont want to give them a non-skilled player to hid weak defensive links on. You dont want to put out a non-shooter that shrinks the court. You dont want Lauri floating too much on the perimeter, you want him to have space to cut/post/drive.
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Right... its just funny the way we talk about it... Lauri is going to play to his strengths whether he is a 3 or a 4 at this point. On defense you are always one switch away from having your matchups all mixed up.
 
HermanG said:
He is. Cy said playing him as a 3 is a terrible idea though, and I'm waiting for his reasoning on that.
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Does he play any different when Beasley is starting than when KO is starting? In one lineup he's considered the 4 and in the other he's a 3.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Yall are too rigid with definitions on positions. The best thing we can do next to Lauri and Kessler is put a long 3 and D wing... full stop. Can you put a PF oriented guy in that lineup? Sure... but not sure that is the best defensive alignment and the PF needs to be able to shoot. Putting perimeter defense and shooting around Lauri/Walker would turn be great... if that SF had some passing chops and playmaking ability then you are cooking with fish oil.
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I agree and I only put the pg,sg,sf,pf,c as a positional awareness. The nba is all about switching and creating mismatches.
Hardy has been starting kessler, olynyk and markkanen together. Does that mean he starts 2 centers and a power forward?
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Does he play any different when Beasley is starting than when KO is starting? In one lineup he's considered the 4 and in the other he's a 3.
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Yes his FGA and PPG has been lower but I think that has less to do with him at 4 but more to do with Beasley being shot-happy.

The bigger probelm though is that either you crowd the backfield or Beasley goes to space in the weak side corner and plays like a 4 anyways. Lauri shot chart, drive chart and efficiency strongly suggest he is better when he gets the ball above the break or cutting in from free throw line extended... than cutting closer to baseline. I'm sure you have seen this and can clearly remember his "money plays".

He is pretty nice when getting the ball on the high/low post or elbow, but sample size for that is REALLY low. Like little over 1 post up per game low.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Does he play any different when Beasley is starting than when KO is starting? In one lineup he's considered the 4 and in the other he's a 3.
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www.statmuse.com

Lauri Markkanen Shot Chart By Season | StatMuse

Lauri Markkanen shot chart by season
www.statmuse.com www.statmuse.com
As you can see from the distribution, its very backcourt heavy. Only 77 corner threes for the year (albeit, money efficiency on those)... and 260 threes from above the break.

Also Cy said he should be guarded by 4s.. but my eyes tell me its the smaller guys he really feasts on. So adding a PF is the thing that really creates mismatches across the court (albeit I agree with you it needs to be a 3&D guy with perimeter quickness, so like a 6"8 dude or something). Also this is why I think John Collins would be a better fit with Lauri than most people think.
 
So we went from tanking to just tanking Lauri's play?

He's gonna expend all his energy on wrestling with 5s (where he's often overmatched), chasing rebounds (which is def not his strength) - so he can't use his strengths on offense, because he's drained.

Smart.
 
HermanG said:
Yes his FGA and PPG has been lower but I think that has less to do with him at 4 but more to do with Beasley being shot-happy.

The bigger probelm though is that either you crowd the backfield or Beasley goes to space in the weak side corner and plays like a 4 anyways. Lauri shot chart, drive chart and efficiency strongly suggest he is better when he gets the ball above the break or cutting in from free throw line extended... than cutting closer to baseline. I'm sure you have seen this and can clearly remember his "money plays".

He is pretty nice when getting the ball on the high/low post or elbow, but sample size for that is REALLY low. Like little over 1 post up per game low.
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I just think if you are designing the perfect front court mate for Lauri... that player is going to very much be a SF and that doesn't mean Lauri has to play like a traditional 4. Defensively having Lauri guard the Paul George's of the world or Mikal Bridges is a terrible idea.... I think its obvious that Lauri is like the fully idealized idea/version of what you'd want as a modern PF. Switchy, rim protection, plays great on the perimeter, if you put a SF on him he will be too big so you need someone with PF size that moves well enough on the perimeter.

With Kessler that PF/SF can't be a non-shooter... you are more likely to find the defense/shooting etc in a bigger SF than in a PF.
 
HermanG said:
www.statmuse.com

Lauri Markkanen Shot Chart By Season | StatMuse

Lauri Markkanen shot chart by season
www.statmuse.com www.statmuse.com
As you can see from the distribution, its very backcourt heavy. Only 77 corner threes for the year (albeit, money efficiency on those)... and 260 threes from above the break.

Also Cy said he should be guarded by 4s.. but my eyes tell me its the smaller guys he really feasts on. So adding a PF is the thing that really creates mismatches across the court (albeit I agree with you it needs to be a 3&D guy with perimeter quickness, so like a 6"8 dude or something). Also this is why I think John Collins would be a better fit with Lauri than most people think.
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Who is better at guarding guys on the perimeter... guys that play SF and do it regularly or PFs? Ben Simmons gave Lauri problems but there aren't many guys as good as Ben on defense and tbh they let Ben foul the **** out of Lauri. And honestly it doesn't matter all that much who you put next to Lauri... unless you put a stud next to him... the opposing team will put their best defender on Lauri. He will be the focus. I think more preference needs to be placed on the defense... and you just want that other partner to be a shooter. JC is good in a small ball lineup with him at 5 and Lauri at 4... but I don't think the starting lineup is awesome with JC in there.
 
I love people in this thread desperate for draft picks yet see a project player likes bones in his second year and are like he's terrible and makes lots of mistakes! That's pretty much 99% of all draft picks for about 3 years.

Players with upside who haven't figured it out and might need more development seem like a decent option for this team.

Bones specifically though I haven't really watched enough though to be honest.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I just think if you are designing the perfect front court mate for Lauri... that player is going to very much be a SF and that doesn't mean Lauri has to play like a traditional 4. Defensively having Lauri guard the Paul George's of the world or Mikal Bridges is a terrible idea.... I think its obvious that Lauri is like the fully idealized idea/version of what you'd want as a modern PF. Switchy, rim protection, plays great on the perimeter, if you put a SF on him he will be too big so you need someone with PF size that moves well enough on the perimeter.

With Kessler that PF/SF can't be a non-shooter... you are more likely to find the defense/shooting etc in a bigger SF than in a PF.
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This is a list from NBA.com of the top SF and PF coming into season (not my list, dont know why AD is PF). Which group Lauri belongs in based on the way he plays?

SF:
  • #8 Brandon Ingram. ...
  • #7 Andrew Wiggins. ...
  • #6 Jimmy Butler. ...
  • #5 Paul George. ...
  • #4 Jayson Tatum. ...
  • #3 Kawhi Leonard. ...
  • #2 Kevin Durant. ...
  • #1 LeBron James. Expect James to be more motivated than ever.
PF:
  • #8 Draymond Green. ...
  • #7 Pascal Siakam. ...
  • #6 Paolo Banchero. ...
  • #5 Anthony Davis. ...
  • #4 Evan Mobley. ...
  • #3 Karl-Anthony Towns. ...
  • #2 Zion Williamson. ...
  • #1 Giannis Antetokounmpo.
 
I think this deadline is a big deal for the Jazz and I really hope we play it right. If it really is a seller's market only I hope we sell all our vets and Vando for great stuff even if it makes us worse this year. Then next year we can make a push to improve a lot through trades and FA. But I'm still hoping we can get younger and improve.

I want us to push for home court in the playoffs the most or secondly drop off with more assets and younger guys getting more run. I don't want to sit where we are though.
 
Ron Mexico said:
I love people in this thread desperate for draft picks yet see a project player likes bones in his second year and are like he's terrible and makes lots of mistakes! That's pretty much 99% of all draft picks for about 3 years.

Players with upside who haven't figured it out and might need more development seem like a decent option for this team.

Bones specifically though I haven't really watched enough though to be honest.
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Its not just the mistakes... its the player type... we good on shot happy combo guards.

Its also not just that the guy sucks... that is fine. Its that Cy will dig in and be like "nah he'd help us win more than this guy we have on the roster that makes some of the same mistakes but is actually way more efficient". That's where Cy gets himself in trouble.

If Bones becomes good... it will look a lot like Jordan Clarkson... we already have JC... we also have Sexton. Cy's positioning of Bones as some potential high level passer is wild.
 
HermanG said:
This is a list from NBA.com of the top SF and PF coming into season (not my list, dont know why AD is PF). Which group Lauri belongs in based on the way he plays?

SF:
  • #8 Brandon Ingram. ...
  • #7 Andrew Wiggins. ...
  • #6 Jimmy Butler. ...
  • #5 Paul George. ...
  • #4 Jayson Tatum. ...
  • #3 Kawhi Leonard. ...
  • #2 Kevin Durant. ...
  • #1 LeBron James. Expect James to be more motivated than ever.
PF:
  • #8 Draymond Green. ...
  • #7 Pascal Siakam. ...
  • #6 Paolo Banchero. ...
  • #5 Anthony Davis. ...
  • #4 Evan Mobley. ...
  • #3 Karl-Anthony Towns. ...
  • #2 Zion Williamson. ...
  • #1 Giannis Antetokounmpo.
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this is exactly what I am saying... you are being too rigid here. I'm less concerned about which bucket lauri should go in and more concerned about what his partner should be. Take Giannis out of the equation as he plays literally every position for the Bucks at times... Who fits best with Lauri... the guys on the SF list of the PF list? Its super obvious to me that the guys on the SF list are way better fits.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Its not just the mistakes... its the player type... we good on shot happy combo guards.

Its also not just that the guy sucks... that is fine. Its that Cy will dig in and be like "nah he'd help us win more than this guy we have on the roster that makes some of the same mistakes but is actually way more efficient". That's where Cy gets himself in trouble.

If Bones becomes good... it will look a lot like Jordan Clarkson... we already have JC... we also have Sexton. Cy's positioning of Bones as some potential high level passer is wild.
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I fully agree we have more than enough shot happy combo guards and I'll add in that don't play defense. I think he has defensive upside and some court vision upside from what I've seen though. I would hardly trade much for him though. Denver looking to move him doesn't concern me though, they are full on win now mode. Clarkson, Sexton, and Beasley often don't even realize there are teammates on the court. We just need guys who can score and also move the ball, he might not be that guy though.

The downside is I would like to see more NAW in the second half. His defense is solid and sometimes is a decent passer who seems close to putting it together.
 
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