Potential Trade Targets

[Handlogten's Heros]

I think Cam is easily a 2FRP kind of guy. He's certainly not a 1 FRP guy, no way. Royce O'Neale is a 1 FRP guy. I do think Cam vs Collins changes the Jazz franchise in a big way. Cam is a much better player and a much better fit. Are we going to find a better use of those picks than Cam Johnson? That is the real question, because there's no guarantee those 2 picks change the franchise substantially either. You're going to need players of Cam Johnson's quality at some point, they won't fall into your lap. It's not like we're burning down the house to get Cam Johnson. We'd be getting rid of a clearly problematic contract on our end while also getting a very good player who is tied down for a long time. I would feel very good about Cam maintaining his value as he enters the prime of his career.

It's ok if you want to say no, but what are you actually going to say yes to? Cam Johnson would be an extremely valuable get for this team. I doubt BKN would even accept this kind of deal. Even with their stable of wings, these are the most highly valued archetypes.

You’re arguing against something you made up yourself. No one said we have to trade these picks. You can agree to disagree, but please do not make up the reasoning as to why we would like the proposed deal up. Never ever did I or anyone else say we like the deal because we must spend those picks.

Cam Johnson is a good player and I like that deal because I think it’s good value to get him and dump Collins for 2-3 picks depending on the quality of those picks. It’s fair to disagree on how good he is or how he would impact the team, but this angle you’re pushing is one you made up to argue against.

Are we going to find a better use of those picks than Cam Johnson? IDK but its like my kids walking through Target and using some cash on slime and takis to me. Need to spend it was a poor word choice but just like my kids... if you got cash you ain't gotta spend it on something now. Its okay... we got play doh and tostitos at home and walk out the store with your $40 until there is something you REALLY need or like.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

sounds like an excellent haul to me.

Yeah but they play with the slime for 5 minutes then leave it in the sun... then all they left with is empty pockets and diarrhea.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Unless we throw in a first, looking to move Collins is all we will do

depends on what we get back in the way of contracts and players... I feel very confident we will not give anything meaningful to get out of the contract. Just like Atlanta... we will likely need to have it on the market for a few transaction cycles or we will use it in a bigger deal.

 

[KqWIN]

Are we going to find a better use of those picks than Cam Johnson? IDK but its like my kids walking through Target and using some cash on slime and takis to me. Need to spend it was a poor word choice but just like my kids... if you got cash you ain't gotta spend it on something now. Its okay... we got play doh and tostitos at home and walk out the store with your $40 until there is something you REALLY need or like.

You're analogy was **** because it implied that you must spend the money. Say I had $40. I can keep it, spend it on something I want, or spend it on something else. I'm going to make that decision and ask myself if spending that $40 on an item is the best use of that $40 before I make the purchase. This is true even if I do not have to spend it. Nothing in that line of thinking suggests that you must spend it and spend it now. I know we don't have to make a trade, but I would still trade for Cam anyways because he's good enough at that price.

Like I said, we can agree to disagree if the item is worth it. But please, stop pushing this argument of "you have to spend it" onto me. If you don't think Cam Johnson is good enough, argue that. Do not argue against the "need" to use the draft picks right now.

 

[hgb]

It's at least two first.

Only if JC is considered negative value IMHO. Grant is a 1 FRP player.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

You're analogy was **** because it implied that you must spend the money. Say I had $40. I can keep it, spend it on something I want, or spend it on something else. I'm going to make that decision and ask myself if spending that $40 on an item is the best use of that $40 before I make the purchase. This is true even if I do not have to spend it. Nothing in that line of thinking suggests that you must spend it and spend it now. I know we don't have to make a trade, but I would still trade for Cam anyways because he's good enough at that price.

Like I said, we can agree to disagree if the item is worth it. But please, stop pushing this argument of "you have to spend it" onto me. If you don't think Cam Johnson is good enough, argue that. Do not argue against the "need" to use the draft picks right now.

I stopped saying you have to spend it... just like my kids don't have to spend it in the analogy. Please read teh post you are actually responding to... I literally said just cuz you got it you ain't got to spend it... thats the ****ing point of the analogy. Sometimes its better to save. When you say "are you going to find something better to spend it on then Cam". Yes I think you can... even if it seems like a good use RIGHT NOW... doesn't mean there won't be a better use later and why do we need Cam right now? we don't

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I just think its funny that some decided John Collins was toxic... his deal is not great. Its like 10-15M per year too high. We can manage the deal. Its not debilitating. Its not cancerous. We are setup well enough to handle it. It was a terrible use of assets but he's a useful player at least. Take the on/off and +/- stuff with a bit of a grain of salt. He was out there when Lauri and Walker were hurt... he was out there when the guards couldn't throw it in the ocean. He isn't as negative as his numbers suggest. We are like 11-4 under this arrangement we fine until someone wants to be generous.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

I'm watching Nikola Jovic right now, and he looks interesting. I wonder what the Heat would want for him.

Here is one of the plays from Jovic last night that got me interested in him. By the way does anybody know how to post these as videos vs links?

Video and Shotcharts | Stats | NBA.com

A video and Shot Chart interface with the ability to filter down to specific on court events and granular details.

www.nba.com

 

[infection]

I just think its funny that some decided John Collins was toxic... his deal is not great. Its like 10-15M per year too high. We can manage the deal. Its not debilitating. Its not cancerous. We are setup well enough to handle it.

It's part of grief stages. For those of us who never liked the Collins deal, this makes sense. For those who liked the Collins deal, they're currently caught on the opposite end of a pendulum swing because they haven't been able to fully process this and move through appropriate stages of grief yet. I'd dump Collins for straight-up expiring salary, but I'm not sending out any assets to dump it. Not that you should look at it this way, but look at the optics of using 1-2 first rounders and a second rounder to dump Rudy Gay.

 

[KqWIN]

I stopped saying you have to spend it... just like my kids don't have to spend it in the analogy. Please read teh post you are actually responding to... I literally said just cuz you got it you ain't got to spend it... thats the ****ing point of the analogy. Sometimes its better to save. When you say "are you going to find something better to spend it on then Cam". Yes I think you can... even if it seems like a good use RIGHT NOW... doesn't mean there won't be a better use later and why do we need Cam right now? we don't

You keep implying that I want Cam Johnson because of this idea that you've got to spend it. That exactly what your first go around did, imply that I only thought it was a good deal because we had to spend it. Sure, you walked it back and admitted it was poor use of words, but you keep reinforcing this idea that the reason why I like the deal is because of a need to spend. I will repeat this again. The desire to spend just because we've got it, or because we need to spend it, that has factored 0% into my opinion on this so I don't know why you made up an analogy to harp on this. The analogy is pointless because that was never a consideration for me. That's what I'm saying. I know we don't have to spend. I know we don't have to spend. I know we don't have to spend. I know we don't have to spend. I know we don't have to spend. There it is, five times in a row, and I still think Cam Johnson is a player worth pursuing if he was available (he's not).

Sometimes it's good to save, sometimes it's not. Saving doesn't guarantee you a better deal. You've got to make a call on if whatever deal you're making is the best move. Asking that question does not imply that you are looking to make a move because you can or because you need to.

BTW, we both agree that JC is not as bad as the +/- suggests. It's funny how mentioning that stuff actually becomes a positive for him because we all know he's not THAT bad. It doesn't change the fact that his contract is still a big negative. Teams have paid first round picks to offload much less money. If he's in a deal for Cam Johnson or anyone else, yeah he's a minus 1FRP at the moment. I don't think we're in a position where me must get rid of Collins, but the point of discussion is what it would take to turn John Collins into Cam Johnson. That was the exact question that was proposed. I think it's fine if we sit on his contract and ride it out, as I've said many times before, but that doesn't answer the question does it? If you think it's JC + one first round pick, I think you're out of your mind.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

You keep implying that I want Cam Johnson because of this idea that you've got to spend it. That exactly what your first go around did, imply that I only thought it was a good deal because we had to spend it. Sure, you walked it back and admitted it was poor use of words, but you keep reinforcing this idea that the reason why I like the deal is because of a need to spend. I will repeat this again. The desire to spend just because we've got it, or because we need to spend it, that has factored 0% into my opinion on this so I don't know why you made up an analogy to harp on this. The analogy is pointless because that was never a consideration for me. That's what I'm saying. I know we don't have to spend. I know we don't have to spend. I know we don't have to spend. I know we don't have to spend. I know we don't have to spend. There it is, five times in a row, and I still think Cam Johnson is a player worth pursuing if he was available (he's not).

come on... I literally said you don't have to spend it and quoted when you said "are you going to find a better use than Cam?" I very much said you don't have to spend it and you can take your money and go home. I simply said I would find a better use than Cam. Did I tag you on the original target post? I didn't. If I was targeting only you I would have tagged you. I was saying some of yall just want to spend... @Saint Cy of JFC was throwing out a bunch of deals using picks. You implied we won't find a better use for picks than Cam... I think its okay to walk out of Target and wait for something that hits you so hard that its obvious. I am not looking to move those picks at all whereas some are throwing out tons of deals with them in there and part of the rationale is "we got em... so use em".

Sometimes it's good to save, sometimes it's not. Saving doesn't guarantee you a better deal. You've got to make a call on if whatever deal you're making is the best move. Asking that question does not imply that you are looking to make a move because you can or because you need to.

You literally said you'd do the deal or implied you would in other areas. Implying you would do the deal is implying you would do the deal lol.

BTW, we both agree that JC is not as bad as the +/- suggests. It's funny how mentioning that stuff actually becomes a positive for him because we all know he's not THAT bad. It doesn't change the fact that his contract is still a big negative. Teams have paid first round picks to offload much less money. If he's in a deal for Cam Johnson or anyone else, yeah he's a minus 1FRP at the moment. I don't think we're in a position where me must get rid of Collins, but the point of discussion is what it would take to turn John Collins into Cam Johnson. That was the exact question that was proposed. I think it's fine if we sit on his contract and ride it out, as I've said many times before, but that doesn't answer the question does it? If you think it's JC + one first round pick, I think you're out of your mind.

THAT IS MY PRICE FOR US! That's what I'd be willing to do for us. The market may very well be higher. I said that. I explained why. Its also implied its one of our good picks... those are easily worth 2x the value of the protected picks that routinely get tossed around.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

Here is one of the plays from Jovic last night that got me interested in him. By the way does anybody know how to post these as videos vs links?

Video and Shotcharts | Stats | NBA.com

A video and Shot Chart interface with the ability to filter down to specific on court events and granular details.

www.nba.com

I wouldn't necessarily do this trade, but it's not easy to match salaries with a player that Miami would want.

Also my interest in Jovic is based off of about 15 minutes, so I could be way off on him, but he looks like what I'm looking for, a young big that can shoot and playmake that you could put next to Lauri and Kessler.

NBA Trade Machine - ESPN

NBA trade machine, make player trades

www.espn.com

 

[KqWIN]

come on... I literally said you don't have to spend it and quoted when you said "are you going to find a better use than Cam?" I very much said you don't have to spend it and you can take your money and go home. I simply said I would find a better use than Cam. Did I tag you on the original target post? I didn't. If I was targeting only you I would have tagged you. I was saying some of yall just want to spend... @Saint Cy of JFC was throwing out a bunch of deals using picks. You implied we won't find a better use for picks than Cam... I think its okay to walk out of Target and wait for something that hits you so hard that its obvious. I am not looking to move those picks at all whereas some are throwing out tons of deals with them in there and part of the rationale is "we got em... so use em".


You literally said you'd do the deal or implied you would in other areas. Implying you would do the deal is implying you would do the deal lol.


THAT IS MY PRICE FOR US! That's what I'd be willing to do for us. The market may very well be higher. I said that. I explained why. Its also implied its one of our good picks... those are easily worth 2x the value of the protected picks that routinely get tossed around.

Implying I’d do the deal does not imply I’d do the deal because of a need or a desire to use those picks. For example, would you trade one first round pick for Luka? If you say yes, it does not mean you are agreeing to that deal because of your desire to spend the first round pick.

The quote “are you going to find a better use than Cam” means exactly zero in terms of the desire to spend picks. It’s about the desire to have Cam Johnson. Like I said, we can agree to disagree on Cam’s quality….but don’t make up the reason why I would make that deal. It’s got zero to do with the desire to spend picks and is all about the desire to have Cam.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Also... remember @KqWIN was one of the supporters of the John Collins trade originally.

Feels risky because this contract could bite us, but at the same time ATL just moved him for barely anything. Maybe they got lucky, but things would have to go horribly wrong for us to not be able to do the same if need be.

I guess things have gone horribly wrong.

 

[KqWIN]

Also... remember @KqWIN was one of the supporters of the John Collins trade originally.


I guess things have gone horribly wrong.

Absolutely. It’s been worse than I could have imagined. Been pretty vocal about this lol.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Implying I’d do the deal does not imply I’d do the deal because of a need or a desire to use those picks. For example, would you trade one first round pick for Luka? If you say yes, it does not mean you are agreeing to that deal because of your desire to spend the first round pick.

The quote “are you going to find a better use than Cam” means exactly zero in terms of the desire to spend picks. It’s about the desire to have Cam Johnson. Like I said, we can agree to disagree on Cam’s quality….but don’t make up the reason why I would make that deal. It’s got zero to do with the desire to spend picks and is all about the desire to have Cam.

Lol.. wut

No ****... but it means you value the thing you are buying more than the thing you are trading. Just like my kids value slime and takis more than saving $40.

 

[infection]

I wouldn't necessarily do this trade, but it's not easy to match salaries with a player that Miami would want.

Also my interest in Jovic is based off of about 15 minutes, so I could be way off on him, but he looks like what I'm looking for, a young big that can shoot and playmake that you could put next to Lauri and Kessler.

NBA Trade Machine - ESPN

NBA trade machine, make player trades

www.espn.com

There’s an additional step where you click “save trade” or something and it gives you a new link, otherwise it’s just a link to the trade machine.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Absolutely. It’s been worse than I could have imagined. Been pretty vocal about this lol.

What teh effs did you expect then? Is it possible this misevaluation could apply to your new target in Cam Johnson?

 

[KqWIN]

Lol.. wut

No ****... but it means you value the thing you are buying more than the thing you are trading. Just like my kids value slime and takis more than saving $40.

Yeah….thats my point. I value Cam more than the picks. How many times did I repeat that? But you keep trying to invent my reasoning and change it to “because you gotta spend it”.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yeah….thats my point. I value Cam more than the picks. How many times did I repeat that? But you keep trying to invent my reasoning and change it to “because you gotta spend it”.

I quite literally stopped doing that like 30 posts ago. You keep saying I am still doing it. I am not. The quote you are using is not me. Quit being stupid or you end up on ignore.