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How bad is Kanter?

I like Kanter and think we managed him wrong, but he is gone, and we need to move the **** on.
 
GVC said:
You've yet to contribute anything of substance to this thread. I'm more than willing to have a respectful discussion, as I think I've shown with spycam and mdav. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with the consensus view, or in explaining why you disagree with it. You're welcome at the grownup table whenever you're ready. You might start by reading what I've actually written, and considering the arguments I've made. Your gross mischaracterizations of my arguments reflect very poorly on you.
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Don't bother with anything but hard details on how DL could have saved us from the upcoming treadmill. I want names Al or Paul could have returned. I'll look over the team and salary that year and tell you why it wouldn't have happened. You can play the DL should have drafted better card, but he's done above average in weak drafts.
 
GVC said:
I also can't accept the argument that the Jazz were better off with worse draft picks. DL could have more easily made the moves he made or made different ones.
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Never said they were better off, but I would seriously question whether we would have been better off if we tanked that season. If we can judge Lindsay by the failed attempt to try to develop Kanter, we can judge Lindsay on the success of a great draft given their position and the quality of the draft. I mean we ended up with a guy who should have gone top 3 (Gobert) and even as bad as Burke has been he still is a mid-1st rounder in that draft. You can't knock Linsday for not tanking earlier when in reality we ended up pretty damn good after the draft.
 
Lindsey certainly isn't immune to criticism. No one is. That said, I want to touch on some of what GVC said regarding Millsap and Jefferson. If I recall, they were both UFA's on the last year of their contract in 2013. GVC, how much do you really think we lost out on, if anything? Given that they were going to be UFA's and had fairly sizable contracts AND that we would've had to take back salary not only in accordance with the CBA but also such that did not (hopefully) go beyond that year and prohibit us from any future deals, while at the same time having said trade partner be willing to throw in pick(s) because let's face it, the trade partner isn't likely trading us a solid player so picks are very likely going to have to be involved more often than not, doesn't simply involve just waving a wand and seeing such a trade appear. Especially when Kevin O'Connor was still in the role of Vice-President of Basketball Operations during that season. Sure, Lindsey was the GM but let's not kid ourselves, I'm sure O'Connor had a large, if not deciding, say in trade matters still at that time. So, to provide a narrative that Lindsey failed during that season in not being able to trade either of those players is a wholly unfair and perhaps inaccurate statement.
 
Stoked said:
How so?

Also he never gave Snyder a chance.
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The only person who's mismanaged Kanter is Kanter. Who decided to come over to UK? Kanter. Who decided to select an agent with no other clients tmk? Kanter. Who decided to semi-bash the team he played for? Kanter (and his agent). Dude is an immature prima donna who doesn't have a ****ing clue as to his place in the pecking order of the league.
 
Cunning Linguist said:
The only person who's mismanaged Kanter is Kanter. Who decided to come over to UK? Kanter. Who decided to select an agent with no other clients tmk? Kanter. Who decided to semi-bash the team he played for? Kanter (and his agent). Dude is an immature prima donna who doesn't have a ****ing clue as to his place in the pecking order of the league.
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Mismanaged himself all the way to a almost 100 million guaranteed by the time he's 27. What a dummy!
 
Cunning Linguist said:
Lindsey certainly isn't immune to criticism. No one is. That said, I want to touch on some of what GVC said regarding Millsap and Jefferson. If I recall, they were both UFA's on the last year of their contract in 2013. GVC, how much do you really think we lost out on, if anything? Given that they were going to be UFA's and had fairly sizable contracts AND that we would've had to take back salary not only in accordance with the CBA but also such that did not (hopefully) go beyond that year and prohibit us from any future deals, while at the same time having said trade partner be willing to throw in pick(s) because let's face it, the trade partner isn't likely trading us a solid player so picks are very likely going to have to be involved more often than not, doesn't simply involve just waving a wand and seeing such a trade appear. Especially when Kevin O'Connor was still in the role of Vice-President of Basketball Operations during that season. Sure, Lindsey was the GM but let's not kid ourselves, I'm sure O'Connor had a large, if not deciding, say in trade matters still at that time. So, to provide a narrative that Lindsey failed during that season in not being able to trade either of those players is a wholly unfair and perhaps inaccurate statement.
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GVC, you probably didn't see it but I thought I'd bump to see if you'd respond.
 
Cunning Linguist said:
GVC, you probably didn't see it but I thought I'd bump to see if you'd respond.
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I saw it. It had already been asked. I didn't answer because it's not terribly relevant to the point I'm making.

I've already stated several times that any of these moves/non-moves can be excused in isolation. What concerns me is the bigger picture -- the bleeding of assets and missed opportunities to add talent. DL has let four players who are now key players on other teams leave -- Al, Millsap, DMC, Kanter -- and received only Tibor and a late 1st or 2nd round pick in return. He's still made no trades bringing back established NBA players to be a part of the team long-term, and his biggest free agent acquisition is Trevor Booker.

If you think the team has enough talent to legitimately contend in the next few years -- after which DL will have to make decisions on Jazz unrestricted free agents (e.g. Gordo can opt out after next season) -- that's not that big a deal. I don't think that. As such, DL still has work to do to add talent. He hasn't shown an ability to do that outside the draft, which is worrisome given where the Jazz will be drafting and the impending unrestricted free agency of current Jazz players. As I've said, the near universal worship of DL on this site is premature.
 
GVC said:
I saw it. It had already been asked. I didn't answer because it's not terribly relevant to the point I'm making.

I've already stated several times that any of these moves/non-moves can be excused in isolation. What concerns me is the bigger picture -- the bleeding of assets and missed opportunities to add talent. DL has let four players who are now key players on other teams leave -- Al, Millsap, DMC, Kanter -- and received only Tibor and a late 1st or 2nd round pick in return. He's still made no trades bringing back established NBA players to be a part of the team long-term, and his biggest free agent acquisition is Trevor Booker.

If you think the team has enough talent to legitimately contend in the next few years -- after which DL will have to make decisions on Jazz unrestricted free agents (e.g. Gordo can opt out after next season) -- that's not that big a deal. I don't think that. As such, DL still has work to do to add talent. He hasn't shown an ability to do that outside the draft, which is worrisome given where the Jazz will be drafting and the impending unrestricted free agency of current Jazz players. As I've said, the near universal worship of DL on this site is premature.
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That's fair. The only thing I'd say is that you continue to state how each instance can be excused "in isolation." For me, each instance should be viewed as such, individually, rather than as a part of some collective whole. With each free agent were unique and particular circumstances. I mentioned Al's and Paul's. Kanter's as well. Those are completely valid reasons for not having received more assets back. Now, losing Demarre was a tough pill to swallow. That, to me, was/is disappointing. But off the top of my head, to be honest, I don't recall the unique circumstances with our salary cap situation at that time.
 
Cunning Linguist said:
For me, each instance should be viewed as such, individually, rather than as a part of some collective whole.
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You're still missing my point. I'm citing those examples to highlight what DL hasn't done to date: No trades for longterm players, no notable free agency acquisitions, no playoff appearances, contention still years away. The Jazz can't afford to miss out on opportunities to add talent; NBA contracts are at most 5 years long now (Gordo can opt out in a year, Favors is an UFA the year after), and the Jazz operate in an undesirable, small-ish market. I don't care if there's a reasonable excuse for getting nothing for Al, Millsap, Carroll and Kanter. I care that DL hasn't yet shown an ability to turn current players into future pieces of a contender, or generally add talent when he had the ability to do so in free agency -- Pleiss, Neto and the collection of DLeague scrubs were easy/lazy signings.
 
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