Jazz Offer Millsap Extension

[Stifle Tower]

that's interesting i didn't realize until now that the new CBA has a max veteran extension salary that is different from max salary, but there it is: 107.5% of previous salary as a max first year, then 7.5% raises from that amount.

knowing that, i think there's a reason the news was worded the way it was. i think both camps wanted fans to know that the conversation started, even though realistically there was never any chance he would take 3/25M. paul and his agent had to know that was the max offer, so this meeting was probably a formality. jazz probably sat down and said something like, "hey the most we can offer is 3 and 25M, but we didnt' want to NOT make you the offer, so there it is." paul probably said "i understand, thanks for officially starting negotiations, but i think you'll understand why i'll wait until i can get more than that from you. talk to you next summer?" jazz: "makes sense. we hope we can keep you around, and we'll talk next july."

OK, my jaw just dropped open. NBAnerd and Kenwood usually have all these rules committed to memory.

Agree completely. The offer is just a formality. I'm sure KOC made it abundantly clear to Paul's agents - if they didn't know already - that this is the MAX extension they can offer. It was a way of showing respect to Paul and opening negotiations. There is nothing that prohibits the Jazz from coming to an understanding with Paul's team, albeit informal and certainly not in writing. KOC can simply say, it's our intent to put a 5/$55M offer on the table on Day 1 of FA next season. And Paul and his agents can say they would certainly sign an contract for that amount.

 

[theNBAnerd]

OK, my jaw just dropped open. NBAnerd and Kenwood usually have all these rules committed to memory.

Agree completely. The offer is just a formality. I'm sure KOC made it abundantly clear to Paul's agents - if they didn't know already - that this is the MAX extension they can offer. It was a way of showing respect to Paul and opening negotiations. There is nothing that prohibits the Jazz from coming to an understanding with Paul's team, albeit informal and certainly not in writing. KOC can simply say, it's our intent to put a 5/$55M offer on the table on Day 1 of FA next season. And Paul and his agents can say they would certainly sign an contract for that amount.

agreed, although i think more likely the informal offer would be more vague... something like "we get that this offer, while the most we can officially offer today, doesn't reflect your value. we fully intend to make an offer next july that better reflects what you bring to the table." you definitely don't want to throw a number out there and have him come back next july -- after a variety of factors may have changed -- with a particular number in mind. then your july 2013 negotiations are off to a bad start when he says, "hey wait, you guys said 55M when we talked last year."

 

[Stifle Tower]

also, remember that next season is when the punitive luxury tax elements hit, too. there might not be a long list of buyers.

It's only extremely punitive for repeat offenders. Isn't the rule 4 out of 5 years? I doubt it will have much effect on offers. It certainly didn't this season when teams were giving out high 2-year contracts. Now maybe the effect will be Paul gets a 2/$28M offer from another team and the Jazz counter with a 4-5 yr. contract for less per season (say $11-$12M), but with the maximum they can give out as a signing bonus.

Pretty big risk to go into the simmer with both Paul and Al as UFA's. Then Jazz could possibly be looking at Kanter/Favors as the starters and no depth behind them. Still believe they need to trade one at the deadline and get whatever assets they can.

 

[theNBAnerd]

OK, my jaw just dropped open. NBAnerd and Kenwood usually have all these rules committed to memory..

and as for this part... thanks for the nice words. just remember that it takes some time to develop an intimate knowledge of all the little details. i learned as i went with the old CBA, too, and i'm sure it will be the same with this one for a while.

 

[JayCamjazzfan]

The jazz don't want to pay him more than 8 or 9 million a year because they are gonna have to give favors and Hayward extensions soon then burks and kanter(if he doesn't bust) and they won't match the offer someone gives him. They need to trade him

 

[theNBAnerd]

It's only extremely punitive for repeat offenders. Isn't the rule 4 out of 5 years? I doubt it will have much effect on offers. It certainly didn't this season when teams were giving out high 2-year contracts. Now maybe the effect will be Paul gets a 2/$28M offer from another team and the Jazz counter with a 4-5 yr. contract for less per season (say $11-$12M), but with the maximum they can give out as a signing bonus.

the repeat offender tax (and, btw, it's the last 3 seasons, or 3 out of the last 4) doesn't kick in yet, but that's not the only punitive piece that i'm referring to.

starting next summer, the base-level tax jumps from $1 to $1.50 for every dollar spent, but there's a graduating scale that charges a higher rate for teams that exceed the tax by a larger amount. even not repeaters can be stuck paying $1.50, $1.75, $2.50, $3.25 or even $3.75 per dollar spent in those ranges.

i only bring that up because it might scare teams away from paying their own free agents. the more free agents that are allowed to walk, the better the likelihood that the buyers will dry up before paul gets his, and then the jazz would have an easier time getting him at a reasonable rate.

Pretty big risk to go into the simmer with both Paul and Al as UFA's. Then Jazz could possibly be looking at Kanter/Favors as the starters and no depth behind them. Still believe they need to trade one at the deadline and get whatever assets they can.

oh i agree. but i don't see what else they can do. i mean, other than offer al an extension. (please no!)

on the flipside, having all those expiring contracts could be EXTREMELY valuable heading into the 2013 tax kick-in. a lot of teams will be desperate to shed long-term salary heading into next summer, which means any of al/paul/mo could fetch a pretty nice haul at the trade deadline.

 

[theNBAnerd]

The jazz don't want to pay him more than 8 or 9 million a year because they are gonna have to give favors and Hayward extensions soon then burks and kanter(if he doesn't bust) and they won't match the offer someone gives him. They need to trade him

those four aren't necessarily going to get max extensions. the jazz also have leverage there because if the extension expectations are far apart, they can QO the guys and then have rights of first refusal should they get a big offer.

my best guess, although a lot will depend on what type of seasons favors/hayward have (and for burks/kanter, the next two seasons):
* an extension for favors that doesn't hit max territory but gets close to averaging double digits.
* an extension for hayward, fairly similar although maybe a tad bit less.
* burks probably goes the QO route, and he'll get a nice offer that the jazz will have to match even though it's a little sweeter than they like.
* kanter will probably either have to agree to a smaller extension OR become an RFA. it doesn't like the minutes will be there for him to establish himself as anything other than a steady backup.

 

[PrinceJL]

i hate ESPN but according to these, Paul ranks in the Top Tier!!

Fantasy Player Rater #3
Hollinger's "Player Eff Rating" #5
Hollinger's "Value Added" #6
Hollinger's "Est Wins Added" #6
* Worth noting that Big Al is #3 in all of the same Hollinger's ratings*

That said & even though Paul is the spit-fire image of this team, I'd rather see Favors' develop playing along-side Jefferson & have him be our 3rd big ($10M/yr MAX).
But... seeing how the league is playing smaller, I can see this team with Favors/Millsap as our frontcourt.

So, trade Al-Alec-Raja for Harden-Perkins-Cook ??
How about Al-Raja for Okafor-Vesely (Booker or Seraphin) ??

FYI, as big men are hard to find/keep:
Notable PF FAs in 2013 (3rd big)
- Taj Gibson
- Tyler Hansbrough
- DeJuan Blair
- Austin Daye
Notable C FAs in 2013 (3rd big)
- Nikola Pekovic
- Emeka Okafor
- Andris Beidrins
- Timofey Mozgov

 

[Harambe]

i hate ESPN but according to these, Paul ranks in the Top Tier!!

Fantasy Player Rater #3
Hollinger's "Player Eff Rating" #5
Hollinger's "Value Added" #6
Hollinger's "Est Wins Added" #6
* Worth noting that Big Al is #3 in all of the same Hollinger's ratings*

That said & even though Paul is the spit-fire image of this team, I'd rather see Favors' develop playing along-side Jefferson & have him be our 3rd big ($10M/yr MAX).
But... seeing how the league is playing smaller, I can see this team with Favors/Millsap as our frontcourt.

So, trade Al-Alec-Raja for Harden-Perkins-Cook ??
How about Al-Raja for Okafor-Vesely (Booker or Seraphin) ??

FYI, as big men are hard to find/keep:
Notable PF FAs in 2013 (3rd big)
- Taj Gibson
- Tyler Hansbrough
- DeJuan Blair
- Austin Daye
Notable C FAs in 2013 (3rd big)
- Nikola Pekovic
- Emeka Okafor
- Andris Beidrins
- Timofey Mozgov

It's steals. The only people that come close are Josh Smith(who's really a 3 anyway) and Demarcus Cousins. Same reason Serge Ibaka is up there (8+ blk rating? beast) even though he has such a blatantly d-league offensive game.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

It's steals. The only people that come close are Josh Smith(who's really a 3 anyway) and Demarcus Cousins. Same reason Serge Ibaka is up there (8+ blk rating? beast) even though he has such a blatantly d-league offensive game.

Ibaka gets such ****. He scored 9.1 points per game this year in 27.2 minutes. That's 12.0 points per 36. Far from great. But for a 22 year old big who's still clearly developing where he's basically the 4th option, with Westbrook and Durant taking 40 shots a night, he did nicely at 53.5% from the floor and quite frankly, looks light years ahead of Kanter on the offensive (and defensive) end. In fact, if we think he can play the 5, I'd rather have him than Paul or Al if we're shelling out 12M per or so. He's insanely better on the defensive end and I wouldn't be shocked to see him score about 16/game in a year or two if he's more like the 3rd option than the 4th.

 

[Harambe]

Ibaka gets such ****. He scored 9.1 points per game this year in 27.2 minutes. That's 12.0 points per 36. Far from great. But for a 22 year old big who's still clearly developing where he's basically the 4th option, with Westbrook and Durant taking 40 shots a night, he did nicely at 53.5% from the floor and quite frankly, looks light years ahead of Kanter on the offensive (and defensive) end. In fact, if we think he can play the 5, I'd rather have him than Paul or Al if we're shelling out 12M per or so. He's insanely better on the defensive end and I wouldn't be shocked to see him score about 16/game in a year or two if he's more like the 3rd option than the 4th.

Your opinion started with one simple statement your mother told you about the guy, didn't it? After OKC just played here in Utah? And then you were like "OMG, maebe mom could date a nba pleayr. I culd be rich!!!!1"

But really, you're right. He could develop into :awesome:. but his team has what.. 4 guys before him in the priority, including arguably the best scorer in the NBA? He has 0 pressure on him to do anything offensively. If there's no pressure, there will never be a diamond. At times, he looks quite far ahead of what we see of Kanter. So what? We're Jazz fans, and we see the good and the bad of our guys, all of the time. We only see the good of other teams players. Does the guy even have a go to move? I just went over some of the highlights on youtube, and it looks like it's one of two things, a block or a dunk by either put back or transition.

There's no question he's lightyears above anyone on our roster in the way of defensive presence on and off the ball. But how much of that is due to him knowing he doesn't have to have a polished offensive game to get minutes in the OKC system?

Edit: Ugh.. derailed. This wasn't about Ibaka being good or bad. It was about making a point of why Milsap's so high on the chart.

 

[Revolution 9]

Millsap will get more than that on the open market... easy. The question is, do we want to pay Millsap what he's worth on the open market? I'm guessing 12-14 million?

Sadly no. Would love to have Sap, but we can't build around him. We have to use that money to keep Favors, Hayward, and Burks(and build around them).

 

[orangello]

All of these PF rankings bring just to mind, after the 2012-13 season will Favors be ranked ahead of Millsap?

I believe that if Favors gets the same amount of playing time he will have better defensive numbers, equal rebounding numbers, and more efficient offensive numbers in comparison to Millsap. If that comes true then Millsap should get $10 million or the first year with that number going down every year after that. You don't want to be paying your back up PF anything near $10+ million.

 

[Former Member]

All of these PF rankings bring just to mind, after the 2012-13 season will Favors be ranked ahead of Millsap?

I believe that if Favors gets the same amount of playing time he will have better defensive numbers, equal rebounding numbers, and more efficient offensive numbers in comparison to Millsap. If that comes true then Millsap should get $10 million or the first year with that number going down every year after that. You don't want to be paying your back up PF anything near $10+ million.

If Millsap were to agree to a contract like that I would be shocked. Also, I would be extremely happy. I am in agreement with you about Favors as well.

 

[UGLI baby]

It's funny reading how some of you guys defend Millsap and Greggy boy.

Bottom line, Millsap is a freaking basketball player and he thinks he deserves more than $8 mil a year. Fire fighters risk their lives every day and don't make half that. As for Greggy, there really is no argument to be made that he didn't cheap out. I don't blame Sap at all for turning that offer down. He deserves more than $8 mil a year and he's going to get it, you'll see. The NBA is a business, time the Jazz and Mr Millsap start treating it like one.

I'll step off my soapbox for now. You guys can go back to worshipping your athletes and owners.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

It's funny reading how some of you guys defend Millsap and Greggy boy.

Bottom line, Millsap is a freaking basketball player and he thinks he deserves more than $8 mil a year. Fire fighters risk their lives every day and don't make half that. As for Greggy, there really is no argument to be made that he didn't cheap out. I don't blame Sap at all for turning that offer down. He deserves more than $8 mil a year and he's going to get it, you'll see. The NBA is a business, time the Jazz and Mr Millsap start treating it like one.

I'll step off my soapbox for now. You guys can go back to worshipping your athletes and owners.

Please stop watching pro sports then.

 

[gregbroncs]

It's funny reading how some of you guys defend Millsap and Greggy boy.

Bottom line, Millsap is a freaking basketball player and he thinks he deserves more than $8 mil a year. Fire fighters risk their lives every day and don't make half that. As for Greggy, there really is no argument to be made that he didn't cheap out. I don't blame Sap at all for turning that offer down. He deserves more than $8 mil a year and he's going to get it, you'll see. The NBA is a business, time the Jazz and Mr Millsap start treating it like one.

I'll step off my soapbox for now. You guys can go back to worshipping your athletes and owners.

Please explain how he cheaped out? He offered the most money that is allowed under the rules of the NBA. Not a penny less. The absolute most allowable. That is not in anyway cheaping out.

 

[NAOS]

It's funny reading how some of you guys defend Millsap and Greggy boy.

Bottom line, Millsap is a freaking basketball player and he thinks he deserves more than $8 mil a year. Fire fighters risk their lives every day and don't make half that. As for Greggy, there really is no argument to be made that he didn't cheap out. I don't blame Sap at all for turning that offer down. He deserves more than $8 mil a year and he's going to get it, you'll see. The NBA is a business, time the Jazz and Mr Millsap start treating it like one.

I'll step off my soapbox for now. You guys can go back to worshipping your athletes and owners.

Dude, you are really wide of the mark with a lot of things in this post. Nobody in their right mind blames Millsap for turning it down, just like nobody should blame Greg&Co. FOR OFFERING HIM THE MAXIMUM DOLLARS in an extension.

I love you, though.

 

[UGLI baby]

Haha this is classic. You guys act like you were in the freaking negotiating room when this went down.

I love the Jazz as much as any of ya'll but I'm not gonna blindly defend them.

Fact is, only Millsap, KOC, and InsideJazzMan know how the talk really went down.

Forgive me for calling a sprayed a sprayed.

 

[gregbroncs]

Haha this is classic. You guys act like you were in the freaking negotiating room when this went down.

I love the Jazz as much as any of ya'll but I'm not gonna blindly defend them.

Fact is, only Millsap, KOC, and InsideJazzMan know how the talk really went down.

Forgive me for calling a sprayed a sprayed.

We don't act like we were there. We are looking at the rules set forth in the CBA and it says that this was the max they could offer to Millsap. We are hardly defending them but just pointing out the ignorance in your posts.