The heroin addict I saw yesterday picking up a Jon UofU professor and taking him to her hotel room seemed to be holding down a job just fine. (Typical Ute)
Jesus drank wine, can it really be that bad?
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The heroin addict I saw yesterday picking up a Jon UofU professor and taking him to her hotel room seemed to be holding down a job just fine. (Typical Ute)
GVC
Well-Known Member
Of course. You probably know several fully functional people who consume prescription pain killers (generally opiates, like heroin) on a regular basis.
GVC
Well-Known Member
Because alcohol is more harmful?
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Worthy of being one of those jokes that gets e-maiiled around and around.
A-Train (old)
Well-Known Member
I remember asking my parents where Jesus came from and they couldn't say anything to that and if they did like say from his father I would follow up with where did his father come from and whatnot then they would just say "that's a good question".
The OP is another good question also and I still don't understand why mormons cannot drink tea or coffee either.
The OP is another good question also and I still don't understand why mormons cannot drink tea or coffee either.
Boondocksaint27
Active Member
Alcohol can be dangerous if used without caution. However, we should have the control ourselves to decide what we want, and take responsibility for our actions.
Living in Europe it's ok to drink(beer and wine), and be in bars at the age of 16. I never get over going to the swimming pool, and seeing HS kids drinking beer at the cafe, not being ID'd, and not causing any problems.
Go figure!
This can be taken so many ways. Certain things are too dangerous even in moderation though right?
I'm guessing you are talking in general about food, drinks, and maybe even soft drugs.
spycam1
Well-Known Member
I think you'd be kidding yourself (whether religious or not), if you thought this could actually be applied to literally all things. It's okay to kill or rape as long as it's in moderation? And what about the inverse? I should only love my family in moderation? I know this isn't exactly what you meant, but the point is that many things are very much open to interpretation--hence the LDS' belief in needing a modern day Prophet to help guide its people in confusing situations, such as the topic at hand (alcohol consumption).
How dare you.
I would never open a thread about Kris Humphries, let alone post in one.
spycam1
Well-Known Member
Just because the original thing is healthy, that doesn't mean it can't go through a process over time and become unhealthy. Seriously?
And a couple of glasses of wine IS healthy. In fact it has been found that low levels of alcohol consumption, no matter what beverage you drink, is healthy. However, drink enough to have any fun and it not only isn't beneficial but is detrimental to your health.
This is another good time to mention a fun documentary: How Beer Saved the World. It's a light-hearted documentary that explores evidence that the very first civilizations were created to provide a year-round supply of beer. National Geographic has a piece on this as well. https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/04/0424_kurtbeer.html
edit.
Another piece on the possibility that beer predates bread. https://www2.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF10/1039.html
Those are valid points. My grandfather was an alcoholic, which nearly ruined his family. Fortunately he got sober before I was born (or perhaps shortly thereafter), so I never knew him that way. But it scarred the family enough that I am *extremely* thankful that my family and church taught me to never take the first sip.
That being said, even though I'm LDS I wouldn't necessarily think that drinking wine in and of itself is sinful. For LDS it is, I believe, because we've made a promise not to, but I won't condemn nonLDS people for an occasional glass of wine. Getting drunk, however, *is* sinful, imho.
I see the Word of Wisdom (that's what we call the health code, for those unfamiliar with the phrase) as being a lot like living kosher if one is a Jew. It sets the community apart from the rest of the world. It also helps people live more healthily (well, kosher mainly did that in the "olden" days, perhaps not so much now).
As far as the OP goes, I don't know if the wine that Jesus drank was alcoholic or not. As I think others have mentioned, alcohol was very important as a preservative back then (or so I understand), so it's quite possible that it did. However, I don't think it's coincidence that the Word of Wisdom moved from a recommendation to a commandment in the LDS church right around the time refrigeration became possible. Times change, and so do some of the guidelines on how we should live our lives. When alcohol was no longer needed as much to preserve foods, the minuses that come with alcoholism started to outweigh the possible benefits. Makes sense to me.
It's part of that same "Word of Wisdom" revelation to Joseph Smith.
Edit: as to whether the overall "Word of Wisdom" law of health makes sense, a quick web search found this
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/705377709/UCLA-study-proves-Mormons-live-longer.html?pg=all
(There are likely other studies/other articles about this study.)
I believe there is some disagreement as to what "wine" was in the Bible. Some people see wine as the fermented alcohol containing wine we see today. Others see wine as unfermented or fresh wine, which could be what we call grape juice or something close to it. There has been research on the definition of wine. Today it is seen as the fermented grape juice. As early as 40 years ago definitions of wine included fermented and unfermented grape juice as wine.
The Latin vinum as used in biblical texts also contains boiled wine and sweet wine as definitions, and both types are unfermented.
The Greek word oinos while believed by many to mean only fermented grape juice, is referred to by Aristotle... "though called wine, it has not the effect of wine, for it does taste like wine and does not intoxicate like ordinary wine". Paipas, a Christian Bishop of Hierapolis who lived close to the apostolic age said "vines will grow each with... ten thousand clusters on each twig, and ten thousand grapes in each cluster, and each grape when crushed will yield 25 jars of wine [oinos]." While he was talking about his thoughts on the millennium it is telling that the grapes only need crushed to get the wine.
I have more on the Hebrew Yayin as well as scriptural passages that could be explained if desired.
My second point has to do with the LDS Word of Wisdom.
Doctrine and Covenants 89:3
3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.
This is given for everyone, but with the weakest of all saints in mind.
This last point is in regards to Silencer's post.
Doctrine and Covenants 58:26
26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is acompelled in all things, the same is a bslothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
Basically use your brains and judgement. Don't wait for a command to come down from the heavens before you stop doing something that is bad or bad for you. Don't wait for a prophet to tell you to do something good before you do it. Your brain is there for a reason, use it.
The Latin vinum as used in biblical texts also contains boiled wine and sweet wine as definitions, and both types are unfermented.
The Greek word oinos while believed by many to mean only fermented grape juice, is referred to by Aristotle... "though called wine, it has not the effect of wine, for it does taste like wine and does not intoxicate like ordinary wine". Paipas, a Christian Bishop of Hierapolis who lived close to the apostolic age said "vines will grow each with... ten thousand clusters on each twig, and ten thousand grapes in each cluster, and each grape when crushed will yield 25 jars of wine [oinos]." While he was talking about his thoughts on the millennium it is telling that the grapes only need crushed to get the wine.
I have more on the Hebrew Yayin as well as scriptural passages that could be explained if desired.
My second point has to do with the LDS Word of Wisdom.
Doctrine and Covenants 89:3
3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.
This is given for everyone, but with the weakest of all saints in mind.
This last point is in regards to Silencer's post.
Doctrine and Covenants 58:26
26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is acompelled in all things, the same is a bslothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
Basically use your brains and judgement. Don't wait for a command to come down from the heavens before you stop doing something that is bad or bad for you. Don't wait for a prophet to tell you to do something good before you do it. Your brain is there for a reason, use it.
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asian_roger
Well-Known Member
If Jesus got a buzz from wine, he would start breakdancing on top of water. Wine was a cultural norm at that time I guess.
Seems like modern science pretty much condemns drinking before early 20's at the least. I don't think we should be promoting alcoholism in children as a society.
I read the first page of this thread, don't have time to read the rest but I thought I'd respond. Please read, you might enjoy!
I've heard and given the mormon bs answers of "not as strong alcohol" and "wine was more pure than water." There might be some truth to them, but they are ridiculous and miss the main point. The truth is, Jesus drank alcohol, he probably got buzzed. I'm definitely okay with that. We believe when Jesus Christ returns we will drink wine with him and I'm pretty sure there will be alcohol in it.
The Word of Wisdom was first given as advice, it wasn't until the 1920's or 30's that it became a requirement to obey it to enter the temple. Unfortunately Mormon's developed a superiority complex for being teetotalers. I 100% accept the revelation and I 100% believe there are blessings I get for following it, but I refuse to believe someone who smokes or drinks alcohol is a sinner (if they abuse drugs, then its probably a sin.)
My singles ward bishop was telling a story about how a few years ago they tore down one of the old stake centers in SLC. When they ripped out the stage they found a bunch of old, broken whiskey bottles underneath it. Turns out that after ward activities the Elder's quorum used to get drunk and would entertain themselves by "bowling" the whiskey bottle under the stage and hearing them crash.
Mormons used to drink alcohol. Joseph Smith drank alcohol and it wouldn't shake my testimony if he drank it after he received the word of wisdom (because when he received the revelation, it was not a commandment, it was advice. I believe it was Heber J Grant or someone else that made it a commandment.)
The modern day prophet says we shouldn't drink alcohol. I believe he gets revelation from God. Just because he tells me that its not okay to drink alcohol right now, doesn't mean I should judge people from different time periods to that same standard. (I'm not sure I'm driving my point home... what I'm trying to say is that if for some crazy reason the prophet said "Don't eat apples during August 2012" that doesn't mean all of a sudden it was a sin to eat an apple in Jesus's day. People do similar things with coffee and caffeine. They read way too much into what the prophet says. We are told not to drink coffee and tea and be wise it everything else we put into our bodies... some people get all passionate about not drinking any Coca-cola... not even caffeine free! Well... if thats what they decide for their life, good for them! But if they start holding other people to that standard, then they are idiots
)----
Anyway, I hope that makes sense, is straightfoward and not offensive. Some LDS people are unreasonable and some grasp onto easy answers way too much.