Millsap and Hayward to Cavs?

[Fishsticks]

so, just to make sure... there are people here who think we would trade up to #1 and take kanter over irving AND williams?

Yes sir, unfortunately it is so. Pretty crazy huh?

 

[Dr. Jones]

red, love that you keep saying we'll be drafting Irving (NO CHANCE), just curious why you fell it's so.
/entertainmentvalue

 

[Fishsticks]

So what you're saying is that you're looking at players trade value instead of his value on the team? That says it all. You honestly think Motiejunas has Bargnani talent? You think a Bargnani type player fits on this team at all? Even in this post you say that you think Knight will be a pretty good player, and then say you're uncertain of him. You say things like the former to make sure you aren't pissing anybody off, and then you say things like the latter to bolster your argument. Stick to your own opinions. Sure, things change, but you're letting yourself be way too influenced by stats and outside sources. WATCH these players play and then use the combination of impressions and combine performance to help mold your opinions. Saying that Motiejunas is worth the risk more than Knight is absolutely mind-blowing and completely idiotic. Motiejunas doesn't have defensive warts, he doesn't have defense at all. Also, drafting a point guard this year doesn't mean he's going to come in right away and be the man. We draft players so they can develop into their potential within a few season and grow from there on. So by your 2-3 years standards, a guy like Knight THIS year would be perfect so by the time Harris' contract runs out, we've got a guy ready to step in and take the reins, rather than drafting somebody that's going to come in and make rookie mistakes for a team that's contending for the playoffs.

I'm nowhere near certain on any of these players, because that's not possible, but I'm giving them their due credit, unlike yourself. You're using your bias to dig yourself deeper and deeper into a hole, while also contradicting yourself every three or four posts. The thing is, I actually agree with some of your evaluations, but the only reason you're arguing that you'd take players like Singleton and Motiejunas over Knight is to make yourself look better for seriously underrating his potential. In the past week you have said that he can be a very good point guard, that you'd take him if we still had the six pick, that the reason you wouldn't take him is because Kanter is the obvious choice at 3 (I agree), while also saying that you'd probably take the likes of Vesely, Motiejunas, Singleton, Valenciunas, Brooks, Biyombo, and other one-dimensional or unkown players because he's a guy that you can get in any daft. He's not going to be the next Drose, Wall, or whoever else, but that doesn't mean he's **** as you're claiming (for now). There's a reason he's projected where he's at. You're flip-flopping your opinions not because of viable information coming in, but because you know you've backed yourself into a corner and are too stubborn to accept it. And that's honestly all I need to know.

Thank you for owning bentley. I love you. Also it has been confirmed bentley has never watched a full uk game. It painfully obvious he does not have a clue as he is the only observer on earth that would put b knight in such low company.

 

[Deleted member 848]

I personally think our defensive woes this season were more specifically caused by being burned on the perimeter. I remember at one point early on in the season the Jazz were the best 3point-defending team in the NBA percentage wise, and this quickly fell as the season progresssed. NUMBERICA I am wondering how Al Jefferson caused this said "implosion"?? He was averaging 17 and 8, only a few less than his overall season average. It is impossible to pinpoint what exactly caused our complete collapse; maybe it was faltering teammate chemistry, its hard to say. All i know is Al Jeffersons woes (poor rotational defense, poor passing from the box although it got a lot better towards the end of the year, lack of getting to the line) were consistent throughout the entire season, yet we only played terrible in half of it. On the other hand we saw starters like Bell and Kirilenko getting progressively worse impact-wise, and our bench could not support them. Hayward was not used much at this time, as we all know. Im definitely willing to give Al Jefferson a chance to se if he continues this progress. During the end of the season he played with utmost pride, and tried to correct many of his errors that hes accustomed to. (He started dunking A LOT more; i remember the first time i had seen him dunk was the time he feel on his "buttox". Months later hed have a dunk every game. His blocking went up. His rebounds got better and his scoring got MUCH better, as we all know. Most importantly, he played through injuries, playing all 82 games only 1 year and a half away from rupturing an ACL. Thats the kind of guy I'd want on my team; the fact that he tends to be on losing teams doesnt affect me that much, since I could tell how awful he felt when he started realizing that he wouldnt be making the playoffs with his team again. Winning is important to the guy, and im sure hell instill this pride among his future terammates that get drafted seeing as hell be the teamleader next season. I like him as a leader more than DWill. Im kinda all over the place with this rant, but basically what I want to conclude is to a potential future lineup:

Either
Harris/Knight/Watson
Hayward/Bell/CJ
Singleton/Millsap/CJ
Favors/Millsap/Al Jefferson
Al Jefferson/Favors/Fesenko

Or

Harris/Watson/sign FA
Hayward/Bell/CJ
Singleton/Kirilenko/CJ
Favors/Millsap
Al Jefferson/Kanter

Both of which we have logjams and mroe importantly great trading pieces in these logjams of talent (PF being the most notable) to try and garner wither a PG/SG or even a SF F.A.
Actually take a good look at those starting lineups; Harris is certainly a good enough PG for a nba finals calibre team (hes made it there as option number two already). We all know how good Hayward is becoming. Im just a Singleton fanboy, but I see his defense helping our team as a whole, seeing as he can defend apparently 3-4 positions and will become a vital teammate to practise against throughout the course of the season. Not too mention that his perimeter shooting is improving exponentially from season-to-season, something we desperately need. Not much needs to be said about how good Favors will be. And lastly we have Al Jefferson, a player who we can certainly pound the ball to when the other 4 teammates are slumping. Im DEFINITELY not suggesting we schedule our offense around him, all im sayign is that hes the type of player who can accumulate points no matter how well a team is playing, something that could be extrememly useful if our other 4 players who are all capable of acheiving 15ppg arent having a offesnively structured game. Lastly, and probably most importantly, we have easily one of the best 6th men of the league if Millsap is okay with playing as a super-sub. He could easily hit 20 points on any given night, and give our team much needed boosts when we need them. If we desire, we can hang on to veterans Kirilenko and Bell for experience and leadership while keeping their minutes low. Right now Im excited for the draft in late June, but I have a really good feeling that our team really doesnt need a rebuild. Add a few defenders, adjust our flex offense system (coach Corbins coaching is pretty much make or break here) and we seriously wont be a worse team than the one that went 27-13 last year. We are in an extremely good situation to become a very strong team in a very short period of time, with the amount of draft picks weve accumulated in a very short time span, coupled with young core teammates and a solid amount of defensive veteran players on our team (I seriously hate Bell but he could be well utilized if he doesnt play 34mpg). Our biggest problems last season? Defense, and Perimeter Shooting. Defensively, well have Hayward, hopefully Singleton and Favors, with Bell and Kirilenko coming off the bench and Al Jefferson being decent in terms of man-to-man and his blocking capability. Harris isnt that bad either. Perimeter shooting wise, our rookie averaged 47% from 3 Point Land. Seeing as hell most likely hit 30mpg this season, Hayward will spread the floor very very nicely. Okur's re-emergence coupled with Bells and Cjs lack of minutes will help this as well. Harris also hit a fairly high amount of threes in his time with the Jazz, perhaps our system benefits him more than New Jerseys. Either way, there is certainly an abundance of specialty shooters on the market and we have mroe than enough trading pieces to get a hold of one. This will be our only issue going into the season if there is no lockout this October.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

^

Agreed unless Biyombo's there at #12. Then we have to seriously consider taking him, even if we already took Kanter.

 

[Deleted member 848]

^

Agreed unless Biyombo's there at #12. Then we have to seriously consider taking him, even if we already took Kanter.

Completely agree, I just left out Biyombo out of fear that he wont slide that far down. Singleton is by no means a bad alternative though.

 

[BENTLEY]

To those who are here to discuss the topic of this thread, ignore this far-too-long post. It's not relevant to Millsap/Hayward to the Cavs discussion.

So what you're saying is that you're looking at players trade value instead of his value on the team? That says it all.

That's my philosophy. If the Jazz were desperate for a PG then I'd value them a little higher but IMO the Jazz are not desperate. I'm not opposed to drafting a PG if he's an obvious top talent, but I don't think Knight is.

you honestly think Motiejunas has Bargnani talent?

I think I said "IF" Motiejunas has Bargnani talent. At 12 I would take that gamble and hope it pays off rather than take a PG I don't need and I'm not gaga over.

you think Knight will be a pretty good player, and then say you're uncertain of him.

Yeah. I think he will be pretty good. I'm not certain of it. Regardless, I think the Jazz can pass on him and find a decent PG another year. I'm fond of Kendall Marshall - I like to get value out of draft picks and since bigs rise then smalls will fall and I think you can find a decent PG outside of the lottery. Since you tend to have this luxury with PGs I prefer gambling on bigs if a big with upside is there when my team is picking. A big with decent enough upside might be there at 12 this year. And since the Jazz have Harris it's an ok time to take the gamble there.

You say things like the former to make sure you aren't pissing anybody off, and then you say things like the latter to bolster your argument. Stick to your own opinions. Sure, things change, but you're letting yourself be way too influenced by stats and outside sources. WATCH these players play and then use the combination of impressions and combine performance to help mold your opinions.

Why would I want to piss people off? I'm here to talk Jazz, not look for a fight. You're getting a little more global here and making accusations about me rather than sticking to the subject. I'm not looking to add to my list of enemies, so I'm sorry we're into this spat over a difference of opinion. It's a message board, guy. It's not like we're making the decisions anyway.
But back to the fun subject - after watching these players play I get definite impressions of them, but I am also influenced by well constructed opinions of posters on here or in the media who have had a closer look than I have. I don't consider myself the final word on anything so why wouldn't I want more information? There are posters on here who have a history of observing players in the Kentucky program so I appreciate their input and am eager for them to influence my own opinion.

Saying that Motiejunas is worth the risk more than Knight is absolutely mind-blowing and completely idiotic. Motiejunas doesn't have defensive warts, he doesn't have defense at all.

In one of my previous posts I said Motiejunas' lack of defense was a negative but, for reasons I've stated regarding decent PGs falling into the teens, I see gambling on Motiejunas' reaching a Bargnani-esque ceiling worth the risk of missing out on Knight.

Also, drafting a point guard this year doesn't mean he's going to come in right away and be the man. We draft players so they can develop into their potential within a few season and grow from there on. So by your 2-3 years standards, a guy like Knight THIS year would be perfect so by the time Harris' contract runs out, we've got a guy ready to step in and take the reins, rather than drafting somebody that's going to come in and make rookie mistakes for a team that's contending for the playoffs.

Yeah, I agree with you that Knight won't be ready right away anyway, so he'll need time to develop - and since the Jazz have Harris he'll have that time. But at pick 6 I'd want a guy that's not a couple years away. It won't cost the Jazz a top 6-12 pick to grab a not-quite-ready PG in another year, so why waste such a high pick? I'm for using that high pick on a premium big with a potentially higher value in the league. I think I'm repeating myself.

I'm nowhere near certain on any of these players, because that's not possible, but I'm giving them their due credit, unlike yourself. You're using your bias to dig yourself deeper and deeper into a hole, while also contradicting yourself every three or four posts. The thing is, I actually agree with some of your evaluations, but the only reason you're arguing that you'd take players like Singleton and Motiejunas over Knight is to make yourself look better for seriously underrating his potential.

Digressing again into global accusations about me. Again, my opinion boils down to preferring to gamble on a big over a PG. We both agree on Knight's ceiling. Pretty good, not great. I think we agree there. I dunno. Knight was certainly clutch in the tourney, but still I'm not sure he'll even be as good as Harris.

In the past week you have said that he can be a very good point guard, that you'd take him if we still had the six pick,

My memory's vague here but I may have said this. I apologize. Maybe I was conceding that Knight was talented enough to be drafted there. This year anyway. I still wouldn't do it. Especially not this year when the Jazz don't need him. And it goes against my philosophy to not draft a PG there unless they have stud potential, and we all know I don't see that in Knight. Again, I'd rather gamble on a big becoming the next Bargnani or Ben Wallace. What am I out if my pick busts? A pretty good PG. Big deal, I can still grab one of those next year at the end of the first round: Kendall Marshall is a soft enough landing pad.

the reason you wouldn't take him is because Kanter is the obvious choice at 3 (I agree), while also saying that you'd probably take the likes of Vesely, Motiejunas, Singleton, Valenciunas, Brooks, Biyombo, and other one-dimensional or unkown players because he's a guy that you can get in any daft. He's not going to be the next Drose, Wall, or whoever else, but that doesn't mean he's **** as you're claiming (for now).

Ok, I'm not vague on this point: I have never said Knight was **** or any other expletive. I like Knight fine but I wouldn't draft him at 3, at 6, and probably not even at 12. But I never thought my opinion, which means nothing since I have no influence over Kevin O'Connor, would be taken personally by another poster. But I guess it's easy to get sucked into attaching our egos to players, and when someone doesn't see the value in them it can feel like a personal attack.

There's a reason he's projected where he's at.

I know. He was a top HS prospect. He was a freshman PG on a team that went to the final four. Along the way he demonstrated he's very clutch. He's a 4.0 student, a smart, high-character kid who said he'd really like to play for the Jazz. All these things are significant. So why am I not on the bandwagon?
In spite of his clutch shots I was never all that wowed by him as a PG. Or a SG. I saw/see him as a good but not great player. Which again, is the reason I'd prefer to gamble on one of those "one-dimensional" bigs. Again, Kendall Marshall will provide me a safe landing. You might think differently but I don't see the difference between Knight and Marshall as one that will negatively affect the Jazz.

You're flip-flopping your opinions not because of viable information coming in, but because you know you've backed yourself into a corner and are too stubborn to accept it. And that's honestly all I need to know.

This is my cue to either make some smart retort or concede to my better. Ok fine I concede, but I don't know what I'm supposed to be conceding to. I try to avoid getting into little spats on a basketball message board. What's the point? And yet here I am. haha - jokes on me. I'll concede that.
We both share the same opinion of Knight - that he'll be a good not great PG. We do not share where to draft that kind of PG. That's all.

I don't look to attack other posters because of their opinions. I apologize if I'm just naturally condescending. It's a gift and a curse.

 

[gregbroncs]

so, just to make sure... there are people here who think we would trade up to #1 and take kanter over irving AND williams?

No but if we have 1 and 4. Knight is a pretty good PG at 4 maybe being the reason they pass on Irving. I would be perfectly happy with DWill or Kanter and Knight. I just threw Kanter out there because a Big and a PG solves a lot of problems for us with Millsap leaving. I know virtually nothing about Kanter or DWill2. I saw a bit of Irving and his youth and not playing seem to be a concern and I was impressed with Knight. It also sounds like Dwill2 may be a bit of a tweener, I am not a fan of undersized PF's and C's anymore. If he's a 3 great sign me up for him over Kanter.

 

[gregbroncs]

red, love that you keep saying we'll be drafting Irving (NO CHANCE), just curious why you fell it's so.
/entertainmentvalue

I am pretty sure he's a cavs fan.

 

[Fishsticks]

Bentley, i do like you and enjoy reading most of your posts, but you just wasted a **** load of time on that response. I mean your credibility seriously just craps out with you knight assesments. I cant imagine what makes you think kendall marshall has anything on knight. Really i think argueing with you on this topic is pointless. You have a warped opinion on knight that no one will back you on, but is your opinion and you obviously will not be swayed regadless of what is put in your face.

 

[BENTLEY]

I don't change my opinion just 'cause no one's there to support it. Big deal.

 

[Fishsticks]

Well you opinion is dead wrong. You are on an iceberg.

 

[Shad]

How about this one?

Paul Millsap and the #3 pick to Cleveland for the #1 pick and Anderson Varejao

We then select Derrick Williams #1 overall and Cleveland gets #3 for Kanter and #4 for Brandon Knight. We then select Fredette at #12.

Utah Depth Chart:

PG: Devin Harris, Jimmer Fredette, Earl Watson
SG: Gordon Hayward, C.J. Miles, Raja Bell
SF: Derrick Williams, Andrei Kirlenko (re-signed), Jeremy Evans
PF: Derrick Favors, Mehmet Okur, Jeremy Evans
C: Al Jefferson, Anderson Varejao, Kyrylo Fesenko

Cleveland Depth Chart:

PG: Baron Davis, Brandon Knight, Ramon Sessions
SG: Daniel Gibson, Anthony Parker, Manny Harris
SF: Paul Millsap, Antawn Jameson, Joey Graham
PF: J.J. Hickson, Samardo Samuels, Luke Harangody
C: Enes Kanter, Ryan Hollins, Semih Erden

I actually kind of like that Jazz line up.

 

[BENTLEY]

Well you opinion is dead wrong. You are on an iceberg.

I thought I was on a message board.

 

[Fishsticks]

Lame

 

[NUMBERICA]

I don't change my opinion just 'cause no one's there to support it. Big deal.

Rock your opinion, just don't have raging stupid ones with raging stupid reasons (that part isn't about you, it's about my reasons for ripping someone). You're a good poster, do your thing.

 

[NUMBERICA]

No I'm listing some of the best big guys and how he could pick apart them too. I could go one with more too, Bynum isn't the best passer and can't shoot, Boozer is always injured, inconsistent at times and plays no defense, Marc Gasol is not effective in transition and doesn't score a lot, Z-Bo doesn't play D, is slow, can't jump and is undersized ETC

Of course every player has shortcomings relative to other players. But I'm looking for players with the least amount of weaknesses possible, and players with no FATAL weaknesses. Context matters, too. On the Jazz, you can't (couldn't?) run an offense through a player that's unable to help his teammates by the attention he draws. And he's not that great of a post player, either.

And comparing losers to winners is not a great place to start. While Pau isn't a great #1 guy on your team, he's a superb #2 player. Al plays like he's on an island, he doesn't help others and no one can help him. You have to throw the ball to him and let him work to get production from him. Players like Shaq might be able to get away with that, but hey, he passed too.

The one guy in the league you could compare him to and have any luck with would be Zach Randolph, and I say he's the exception (guys can change very late in their careers) that proves the rule (players almost never change late in their careers). Jefferson's 7 years in and hasn't noticeably improved in 4 years. I just don't see it.

 

[Hantlers]

Bentley, Knight is 10x the player that Marshall is. Marshall is/will be a great COLLEGE PG, but I have my doubts about how he's going to do in the NBA. Knight will start and will play well in the NBA. Obviously this is all my opinion, but I watch a lot of college bball and saw both these kids play quite a bit.

 

[pappyman]

That's terrible. Sorry, but Baron is not the future of the Cavs. We'll be drafting Irving!

That's not what I was saying. Brandon Knight would be the future of the Cavs at PG. However, Knight probably is not ready right now to take over as the full-time starter. Until he is, Baron Davis would start. Davis is aging and Knight should be able to take over for him in a year or so.

 

[LunaticWolf]

Bentley is a solid choice for the new Portland GM. He can pick bigs over and over again over better smaller players, just as they have always done.