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More death threats -- Woman take video of her walk through New York

One Brow said:
Harassment is not just a single incident, it can be the part of a pattern of uncoordinated activity. One guy telling an inappropriate joke is not harassment, but when you hear inappropriate jokes 8 or 10 times a day, even if they come from different people and even if there is no coordination, it is still harassment. When you hear 10 comments an hour, even if no individual comment is harassment and no person intends to harass, to overall effect can be harassing.
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So...saying "hi" to passersby is harassment?
 
GVC said:
I think we all recognize this. Some of us think positive, social culture is important, and that those who promote negative, anti-social culture should be lampooned and driven out (spoiler: The irony is intentional). That's exactly the point of the video in the OP. Most of us, however, don't agree that saying "hi" to someone in a public space is harassment. I'd guess we also generally think that the consequences of promoting complete non-interaction with all strangers in public spaces are more negative than positive.

edit: OB, have you ever lived in a small town where saying "hi" to passersby was the norm?
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Yes, I have lived in a town like that (sometimes even in a large city, you find neighborhoods like that, I've lived in a couple of those as well). However, even then, you would have to be a lot more socially awkward than I not to realize there are obvious exceptions to that rule. I have been saying for many pages that context is very important in determining what is and is not the correct course of action. In communities where greeting are traditional, the context is different.
 
One Brow said:
OK.

You can be both lonely generally and in a mood to be alone at a specific time, so I would not be surprised if sometimes the body language would be the same. If initiating a conversation is the only way you can know, I hope you also accept responsibility for any possible disturbance this causes to the other person.

I don't think you have to be a father figure to treat women with respect. I find it interesting that you conflate the two. Why do yo think that is?

You seem like a relatively intelligent person. In fact, you seem intelligent enough that, when I make a reference to something I had said a mere two paragraphs earlier in the same post, you are more than capable of making the connection between the two. Nor do I believe that you were unable to understand the earlier paragraph, in part because you would have asked. Therefore, I can't see any honest way to interpret your last two questions. You know the answer, but rather than be honest about that, you wanted to score some rhetorical points. How well does that speak for your politeness and respect?
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I don't conflate the two. Trying to protect women from men that say "Hi" to them is overbearing behavior. Most on here seem to be able to understand the difference between "Hello" and "Hey baby nice ***". One is respectful the other is not.

You are intelligent enough to know that I answered the mind reading thing. The only way to tell if someone is lonely or wants to be left alone(for me) is to talk to them.
 
heyhey said:
I don't conflate the two. Trying to protect women from men that say "Hi" to them is overbearing behavior. Most on here seem to be able to understand the difference between "Hello" and "Hey baby nice ***". One is respectful the other is not.

You are intelligent enough to know that I answered the mind reading thing. The only way to tell if someone is lonely or wants to be left alone(for me) is to talk to them.
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Trying to argue against men being responsible for the result of the conversations they initiate is infantilizing behavior.

Again, when you start these conversations and the person reacts negatively, do you accept blame for your actions, internally and externally?
 
One Brow said:
Is that really your best interpretation of the post?
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Insofar as the video in the OP provides some insight/information about the frequency and nature of public verbal interactions women (or others) may encounter in a day, it's useful. Lumping in those who say "hi" with those who say "hey baby, nice ***" is neither instructive nor constructive. There was only one instance where the women was arguably hindered in what she was doing. I simply don't think those who say "have a nice evening" are piling on. I think those who say "hi" or "good morning" or "have a nice evening" are, absent non-verbal cues or not, engaging in pro-social behavior. I'd never argue in favor of complete disengagement with strangers because they might get offended.
 
One Brow said:
Again, when you start these conversations and the person reacts negatively, do you accept blame for your actions, internally and externally?
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Not directed to me, but I'll bite.

While I take full responsibility for how I engage someone, I wouldn't accept "blame" for someone else's negative response to such an innocuous greeting. If someone responds negatively to "hi", that's on them.

I will admit to negative internal reactions to a neighbor who didn't wave when passing in her car when I lived in the country. I don't see anything particularly wrong with my reaction.
 
GVC said:
Insofar as the video in the OP provides some insight/information about the frequency and nature of public verbal interactions women (or others) may encounter in a day, it's useful. Lumping in those who say "hi" with those who say "hey baby, nice ***" is neither instructive nor constructive. There was only one instance where the women was arguably hindered in what she was doing. I simply don't think those who say "have a nice evening" are piling on. I think those who say "hi" or "good morning" or "have a nice evening" are, absent non-verbal cues or not, engaging in pro-social behavior. I'd never argue in favor of complete disengagement with strangers because they might get offended.
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Do you agree that intent does not always transfer from the speaker to the hearer? Even when the speaker has no harassing intent, the overall regularity of the interactions can make the utterances unwelcome.

I also would not, and have not, argued for complete disengagement. I would, and have, argued for selective engagement. The same greeting offered with the same intent that is likely to make someone feel unwelcome in one context can easily be one that makes them feel welcome in a different context. Do you agree that, regardless of intent, the person speaking is responsible for considering the unintended consequences?

GVC said:
Not directed to me, but I'll bite.

While I take full responsibility for how I engage someone, I wouldn't accept "blame" for someone else's negative response to such an innocuous greeting. If someone responds negatively to "hi", that's on them.

I will admit to negative internal reactions to a neighbor who didn't wave when passing in her car when I lived in the country. I don't see anything particularly wrong with my reaction.
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Putting aside the issue of whether you reaction is wrong or right (for me, a reaction is never either, but I don't want to get into that in this thread), why was it negative to begin with? Was there a deprivation in your life? Did your neighbor owe you something and fail to deliver?
 
GVC said:
What if I think those greetings have a positive effect on society? Should I let what I see as anti-social culture win out?
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Not to mention that American society ( and I am sure Canadian society also) has many traditional greetings. It is an extremely common practice in America. Waves, head nods, "hi" and "hello", door holding and eye contact...
 
GVC said:
What if I think those greetings have a positive effect on society? Should I let what I see as anti-social culture win out?
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I occasionally hear from other posters that, if I presented things in a better way and more appropriately, they would be better received. However, I see some of the hostility to my positions as inevitable, because whenever you are trying to raise awareness in others in order to affect a culture, there will be push-back as some people are made to feel discomfort by any change in culture.

Similarly, if you are trying to change culture, you do understand that this means, at times, you will be making people feel uncomfortable in the attempt. Do you find that acceptable? Is it worth the goal, to you? I can't answer those questions for you.
 
I said:

Quote Originally Posted by LogGrad98 View Post
And frankly the percentage of times that has occurred to me, a person who makes it a habit of smiling and saying "hi" to pretty much everyone as I am walking about the workplace, and which has become a habit mostly everywhere in my life, is so miniscule that I cannot remember the last time I got anything worse than a "hi" in return.
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You answered:

One Brow said:
Because the workplace is such an exact parallel to seeing random people on the street.
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Did you miss the part in bold or just conveniently ignore it. I agree with Stoked, you are getting more and more extreme in all this, and you have the condescending tone of a teacher that is looking for that one specific answer that the students can't guess at. Why not just lay it on the line, clearly and without ambiguity. Or perhaps just answer this straight up:

Is it wrong for an individual to approach another individual and attempt to engage them in conversation, or simply greet them potentially habitually, by saying "hi"?

And it cannot be a "yes....if it makes their day worse" or "yes as long as you understand it is your fault for interrupting their day" or any esoteric crap like that. We are talking basic human interaction here. We can infer lots from what you say and you always have another reason to shift what you are implying. It's like trying to stab a marble. Lay your opinion on the line. Here I can start.

My opinion is that it is absolutely socially acceptable to approach another individual absent of all signals or cues and say "hi" to attempt to initiate a social interaction regardless of their ultimate response.

I will give one caveat that it would not be acceptable in the face of crazy obvious cues (people running, someone hysterical, maybe she lost her baby or something, people already engaged in conversation, person actual says out loud "no one talk to me", person is huddled up in a corner and staring at the wall, people on the phone, people with their headset on and jammin to their fav tunes, people reading, etc.). But I still hold that the act itself is perfectly acceptable in all but the most extreme cases.
 
Stoked said:
Not to mention that American society ( and I am sure Canadian society also) has many traditional greetings. It is an extremely common practice in America. Waves, head nods, "hi" and "hello", door holding and eye contact...
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Notice how four of those six things are non-verbal?
 
One Brow said:
Yes, I have lived in a town like that (sometimes even in a large city, you find neighborhoods like that, I've lived in a couple of those as well). However, even then, you would have to be a lot more socially awkward than I not to realize there are obvious exceptions to that rule. I have been saying for many pages that context is very important in determining what is and is not the correct course of action. In communities where greeting are traditional, the context is different.
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Actually what you have been saying for pages and pages is that the response justifies the stimulus. Everytime a scenario is presented all you say is "yes but what if they cry then, was it justified that you ruined their day with your intrusive 'hi'?" which we cannot know until after the fact, in other words post hoc ergo propter hoc. You have also used very vague and unclear signals as your example, like eye contact or a nod of the head. You are aware that in some cultures these signals can have very different meanings right? And in America it is awful tough to guess what culture someone grew up in, hence the difficult time we have reading signals accurately.
 
One Brow said:
Do you agree that intent does not always transfer from the speaker to the hearer? Even when the speaker has no harassing intent, the overall regularity of the interactions can make the utterances unwelcome.
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Yes. That said, treating those who say "hi" with hostility OR labeling their behavior "harassment" is effectively blaming them for the poor behavior of others. Wouldn't it be easier/more positive to take friendly greetings as proof that not all people are terrible harassers, and that there's still hope for mankind? Maybe I'm just naive.

One Brow said:
Do you agree that, regardless of intent, the person speaking is responsible for considering the unintended consequences?
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Within reason, yes. Those who react negatively to someone saying "have a nice evening" are responsible for their reaction as well.



One Brow said:
Putting aside the issue of whether you reaction is wrong or right (for me, a reaction is never either, but I don't want to get into that in this thread), why was it negative to begin with? Was there a deprivation in your life? Did your neighbor owe you something and fail to deliver?
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We're talking about frequent complete indifference to a friendly, non-intrusive greeting from a neighbor. In a small, rural town, people have to look out for each other because "the law" is simply too far away. Someone who fails to recognize their neighbors who feel a responsibility to do just that is incredibly ungrateful, impolite, anti-social. So yes, my neighbor owed me to stick two fingers up above her steering wheel, and perhaps crack a small smile.
 
One Brow said:
Harassment is not just a single incident, it can be the part of a pattern of uncoordinated activity. One guy telling an inappropriate joke is not harassment, but when you hear inappropriate jokes 8 or 10 times a day, even if they come from different people and even if there is no coordination, it is still harassment. When you hear 10 comments an hour, even if no individual comment is harassment and no person intends to harass, to overall effect can be harassing.
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If you want to get into the definition of harassment first you need to provide context. Do you mean legally, or socially, or a book definition? Legally anything you listed above could be construed to be harassment, and the examples of repeated actions even if not from the same individual are technically viewed as "hostile environment" harassment.

A joke told one time can be harassment in that it offends the person who feels harassed. It can also be part of a larger pattern of behaviors, but doesn't always have to be. Legally to have a hostile work environment it does not always require a pattern of behavior, although that is most common. One action can be enough.
 
One Brow said:
Similarly, if you are trying to change culture, you do understand that this means, at times, you will be making people feel uncomfortable in the attempt. Do you find that acceptable? Is it worth the goal, to you? I can't answer those questions for you.
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Yes, acceptable. In this case, I do think it's worth fighting against people who label friendly greetings "harassment".
 
One Brow said:
Trying to argue against men being responsible for the result of the conversations they initiate is infantilizing behavior.

Again, when you start these conversations and the person reacts negatively, do you accept blame for your actions, internally and externally?
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I'm trying to think of when I have gotten a negative reaction for a simple hello. The only ones I can think of are from young men and homeless people.

To directly answer your question No I do not accept blame for someone being in a bad mood. When I pass someone on the sidewalk I say "good mornin" "afternoon" or 'good evenin". When I need to get by someone I say "excuse me". When I am unsure of where a line begins I say "Is this the line?" or "Are you in line?" I say these things to both women and men.

To think that anyone has burdened you in any way for saying these things to you is anti-social behavior. Granted I am not trying to pick up women. If I was though I see no reason why politely trying to initiate a conversation would be unacceptable.
 
One Brow said:
Perhaps not to you. After all, you seem to think those random people owe you pleasantness.
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On the contrary, I feel I owe it to others to be pleasant. I was raised to be polite to people and a friendly greeting I view as polite social interaction. They can do what they want, and it won't change the fact that I feel I am being polite.

It is interesting to me you would make this assumption.

I have another question for you. Have you ever had someone say "hi" to you that you felt owed you an apology after the fact, or had someone say something like "good morning" who then apologized for doing do? Or have you ever made a similar comment then apologized after the fact since you interrupted their day?
 
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