Nelson Mandela Dies

[Hantlers]

Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had plead guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.

Contrary to popular belief, the vast majority of blacks in South Africa aren’t natives, but came by the millions from neighboring countries only after the white Boers created a country with a thriving economy, education opportunities and medical benefits.

Under white rule, blacks in South Africa enjoyed better living conditions than any other African country, where blacks kill each other in tribal warfare.

Since Mandela took over, South Africa has become a Third World country. It went from being the safest country in Africa, to being the rape and murder capital of the world. In Johannesburg, 5,000 people are murdered every year. Unemployment went from 5% in 1994 to 50% today.

Now I'm not saying that white>black or black>white...all of that is garbage racist crap, I don't do that. All I'm saying is that Mandela isn't who most people think he is. I would not classify him as a good man.

Oh, and some nice quotes from Mr. Mandela.

"Long live the Cuban Revolution. Long live comrade Fidel Castro... Cuban internationalists have done so much for African independence, freedom, and justice. We admire the sacrifices of the Cuban people in maintaining their independence and sovereignty in the face of a vicious imperialist campaign designed to destroy the advances of the Cuban revolution. We too want to control our destiny... There can be no surrender. It is a case of freedom or death. The Cuban revolution has been a source of inspiration to all freedom-loving people."

"The Soviet Union is the torch-bearer for all our hopes and aspirations. We have learned and are continuing to learn resilience and bravery from the Soviet people, who are an example to us in our struggle for freedom, a model of loyalty to internationalist duty. In Soviet Russia, genuine power of the people has been transformed from dreams into reality. The land of the Soviets is the genuine friend and ally of all peoples fighting against the dark forces of world reaction."

 

[Gameface]

Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had plead guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.

Contrary to popular belief, the vast majority of blacks in South Africa aren’t natives, but came by the millions from neighboring countries only after the white Boers created a country with a thriving economy, education opportunities and medical benefits.

Under white rule, blacks in South Africa enjoyed better living conditions than any other African country, where blacks kill each other in tribal warfare.

Since Mandela took over, South Africa has become a Third World country. It went from being the safest country in Africa, to being the rape and murder capital of the world. In Johannesburg, 5,000 people are murdered every year. Unemployment went from 5% in 1994 to 50% today.

Now I'm not saying that white>black or black>white...all of that is garbage racist crap, I don't do that. All I'm saying is that Mandela isn't who most people think he is. I would not classify him as a good man.

Oh, and some nice quotes from Mr. Mandela.

"Long live the Cuban Revolution. Long live comrade Fidel Castro... Cuban internationalists have done so much for African independence, freedom, and justice. We admire the sacrifices of the Cuban people in maintaining their independence and sovereignty in the face of a vicious imperialist campaign designed to destroy the advances of the Cuban revolution. We too want to control our destiny... There can be no surrender. It is a case of freedom or death. The Cuban revolution has been a source of inspiration to all freedom-loving people."

"The Soviet Union is the torch-bearer for all our hopes and aspirations. We have learned and are continuing to learn resilience and bravery from the Soviet people, who are an example to us in our struggle for freedom, a model of loyalty to internationalist duty. In Soviet Russia, genuine power of the people has been transformed from dreams into reality. The land of the Soviets is the genuine friend and ally of all peoples fighting against the dark forces of world reaction."

So if "white rule" provides for a better quality of life (subjective standard) then blacks should submit to white rule? Is that the argument you're making?

 

[Hantlers]

So if "white rule" provides for a better quality of life (subjective standard) then blacks should submit to white rule? Is that the argument you're making?

No, not at all.

I should have said previous rule, I didn't want to make it out to be a racist thing. That was a poor comment on my part. I guess what I'm trying to say is that perhaps Mandela didn't exactly help out his country as much as people like to think he did.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

Also Duck....

MLK jr and Ghandi weren't with out their blemishes, but it is how they transcended their faults and brought to pass a much greater good!!!!

Mandela's triumphs out way his sins!!!!!

Agree with this, and let me add a lot of disrespect on jazzfanz! Our history is riddled with stories of redemption. It's what makes God a merciful God. It's not for us to judge him for his past, but for God alone. Even as bad as Saul was in the bible, he was great and did much good as the prophet Paul, giving his life in the service of God.

My point is if a man be forgiven his sins, we should as well.

We should recognize him as the man he is and not the man he was before prison, and is not the man that died.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had plead guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.

You're right, it's a shame that they didn't go through the pacifist, non-violent protest route initially.


Oh wait, what? They did? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpeville_massacre


Besdies, it's not like any of America's founding-fathers committed acts that would now be classified as terrorism, for the sake of standing up for their country, and their values. Those damn blood-thirsty South Africans.

Contrary to popular belief, the vast majority of blacks in South Africa aren’t natives, but came by the millions from neighboring countries only after the white Boers created a country with a thriving economy, education opportunities and medical benefits.

Yeah you're right. Only reason that South Africa has prospered, is because of the Boers. Africa purely consisted of hopeless, rampantly-violent civilizations before the arrival of the superior whites. It's a shame that there was no such thing as African colonialism. If we had multiple European countries invading African nations, and imposing their ideals on them a couple of centuries ago, maybe Africa would be in a much better place. Europeans could have stopped the tribe-violence-- the opposite could never occur.

Under white rule, blacks in South Africa enjoyed better living conditions than any other African country, where blacks kill each other in tribal warfare.

Yeah, those blacks really had some stellar living conditions. Wish I was black and lived in South Africa during the 20s-60s tbh.


Also, the only reason that South Africa is a prosperous country IS NOT because it is one of the most geographically convenient places in South Africa, with its temperate environment and plethora of resources providing vast amounts of economic potential-- it is purely because of those damn smart Boers. It's too bad the Dutch, the English, the French, and the Germans didn't follow suit, and attempt to colonize other African lands.

Since Mandela took over, South Africa has become a Third World country. It went from being the safest country in Africa, to being the rape and murder capital of the world. In Johannesburg, 5,000 people are murdered every year. Unemployment went from 5% in 1994 to 50% today.

Right, it's that simple. Unemployment has risen just because Apartheid ended. I cannot believe what I am reading.

Here's an interesting paper that tackles this issue: https://www.nber.org/papers/w13167.pdf

Another way in which many sub-Saharan African countries often deal with rigidities in the formal sector labor market is through a burgeoning informal sector. South Africa, though, has a relatively small informal sector relative to its African neighbors. One reason this might be the case is that a spirit of entrepreneurship was actively discouraged for decades under apartheid. This history may help explain why the informal sector has not grown as quickly as one might otherwise expect

These results speak to the difficulties associated with some types of job search as well as point to potential constraints that might be relaxed with policy. For example, a vestige of apartheid is the geographic distance between where many of the unemployed reside and where most businesses are located. This makes searching for employment especially expensive and difficult, and our results suggest that transitions by urban Africans (who tend to live in outlying areas) from informal to formal sector jobs are rare

But no ur rite, its much easier to just look at a problem as complex as unemployment, and pin it completely on black rulers being inept. Jesus.

Now I'm not saying that white>black or black>white...all of that is garbage racist crap, I don't do that. All I'm saying is that Mandela isn't who most people think he is. I would not classify him as a good man.

Well, I think most South Africans, black and white, would disagree with you-- and at the end of the day, that is all that should matter.

Oh, and some nice quotes from Mr. Mandela.

"Long live the Cuban Revolution. Long live comrade Fidel Castro... Cuban internationalists have done so much for African independence, freedom, and justice. We admire the sacrifices of the Cuban people in maintaining their independence and sovereignty in the face of a vicious imperialist campaign designed to destroy the advances of the Cuban revolution. We too want to control our destiny... There can be no surrender. It is a case of freedom or death. The Cuban revolution has been a source of inspiration to all freedom-loving people."

"The Soviet Union is the torch-bearer for all our hopes and aspirations. We have learned and are continuing to learn resilience and bravery from the Soviet people, who are an example to us in our struggle for freedom, a model of loyalty to internationalist duty. In Soviet Russia, genuine power of the people has been transformed from dreams into reality. The land of the Soviets is the genuine friend and ally of all peoples fighting against the dark forces of world reaction."

Just because an ideal goes against American rhetoric, it doesn't mean that there is absolutely nothing to be appreciated for those statements. Whether we agree with an individual's political leanings or not, seeing them rise up, and try to fight for what they believe is right, is something that can be appreciated regardless of whether we think it is correct or not.



-------




Honestly, one of the most preposterous posts I have ever seen on Jazzfanz. What is especially rich is referring how the presence of Boers stops tribal violence in Africa-- when most African experts unanimously agree that tribal violence has skyrocketed COMPLETELY DUE TO EUROPEAN COLONIALISM. But no ur rite Hutus/Tutsis kill eachtoherrr cuz they dum.

 

[Deleted member 848]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that perhaps Mandela didn't exactly help out his country as much as people like to think he did.

I'd love you to look at a black South African women, age 70, dead in the face, and say this to her. I'd pay thousands, tbh.

 

[Gameface]

No, not at all.

I should have said previous rule, I didn't want to make it out to be a racist thing. That was a poor comment on my part. I guess what I'm trying to say is that perhaps Mandela didn't exactly help out his country as much as people like to think he did.

You can say it's not a racist thing but that doesn't mean it isn't. Sure, take the "race" out of it, you're still saying that the superior western culture brought the savages up from their evil ways. That's what it seems to me, anyway.

 

[♪alt13]

You're right, it's a shame that they didn't go through the pacifist, non-violent protest route initially.


Oh wait, what? They did? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpeville_massacre


Besdies, it's not like any of America's founding-fathers committed acts that would now be classified as terrorism, for the sake of standing up for their country, and their values. Those damn blood-thirsty South Africans.




Yeah you're right. Only reason that South Africa has prospered, is because of the Boers. Africa purely consisted of hopeless, rampantly-violent civilizations before the arrival of the superior whites. It's a shame that there was no such thing as African colonialism. If we had multiple European countries invading African nations, and imposing their ideals on them a couple of centuries ago, maybe Africa would be in a much better place. Europeans could have stopped the tribe-violence-- the opposite could never occur.



Yeah, those blacks really had some stellar living conditions. Wish I was black and lived in South Africa during the 20s-60s tbh.


Also, the only reason that South Africa is a prosperous country IS NOT because it is one of the most geographically convenient places in South Africa, with its temperate environment and plethora of resources providing vast amounts of economic potential-- it is purely because of those damn smart Boers. It's too bad the Dutch, the English, the French, and the Germans didn't follow suit, and attempt to colonize other African lands.



Right, it's that simple. Unemployment has risen just because Apartheid ended. I cannot believe what I am reading.

Here's an interesting paper that tackles this issue: https://www.nber.org/papers/w13167.pdf







But no ur rite, its much easier to just look at a problem as complex as unemployment, and pin it completely on black rulers being inept. Jesus.




Well, I think most South Africans, black and white, would disagree with you-- and at the end of the day, that is all that should matter.



Just because an ideal goes against American rhetoric, it doesn't mean that there is absolutely nothing to be appreciated for those statements. Whether we agree with an individual's political leanings or not, seeing them rise up, and try to fight for what they believe is right, is something that can be appreciated regardless of whether we think it is correct or not.



-------




Honestly, one of the most preposterous posts I have ever seen on Jazzfanz. What is especially rich is referring how the presence of Boers stops tribal violence in Africa-- when most African experts unanimously agree that tribal violence has skyrocketed COMPLETELY DUE TO EUROPEAN COLONIALISM. But no ur rite Hutus/Tutsis kill eachtoherrr cuz they dum.

Someone please rep Dal

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Dalamon again.

 

[Hantlers]

Dala, you took a lot of liberties with what I posted. I never said SA prospered because of the Boers, I just pointed out that they did prosper. I pointed out facts. Again, I did not say that unemployment rose because apartheid ended, I just said unemployment rose after Mandela took charge. Did I say America's leaders haven't done terrible things? No, I did not. And they have done terrible things, things that I disagreed with.

Again, unemployment rose dramatically after Mandela took over. Living conditions worsened. Is that because he's black? Hell no. It's because he was an inept leader (in my opinion). If he was white I would have said the same thing.

And actually Dala, the opinion of other people does not change my opinion on the man. That is not all that matters. We are not supposed to live our lives based off of the world's standards, you know that. I do find it funny that you're the one pointing out that Mandela is black though. I don't believe I ever mentioned that he was black in my original post. His color has nothing to do with how he lead, or my opinion of him. You took the liberty of saying that. You made that assumption. Don't make assumptions.

 

[One Brow]

And actually Dala, the opinion of other people does not change my opinion on the man. That is not all that matters. We are not supposed to live our lives based off of the world's standards, you know that. I do find it funny that you're the one pointing out that Mandela is black though. I don't believe I ever mentioned that he was black in my original post. His color has nothing to do with how he lead, or my opinion of him. You took the liberty of saying that. You made that assumption. Don't make assumptions.

Hantlers, thank you so very much for the slightly distorted mirror.

 

[Hantlers]

You can say it's not a racist thing but that doesn't mean it isn't. Sure, take the "race" out of it, you're still saying that the superior western culture brought the savages up from their evil ways. That's what it seems to me, anyway.

Excuse me?

I pointed out that living conditions worsened and unemployment rose after Mandela took over. Again, you took the assumption that I thought they were savages (they aren't). Facts are facts, has nothing to do with race or which color did what. If the previous government was black, I would have had the same facts and could have said the same thing. The color of these people has absolutely nothing to do with my argument.

 

[Hantlers]

Hantlers, thank you so very much for the slightly distorted mirror.

You're welcome.

 

[Gameface]

Excuse me?

I pointed out that living conditions worsened and unemployment rose after Mandela took over. Again, you took the assumption that I thought they were savages (they aren't). Facts are facts, has nothing to do with race or which color did what. If the previous government was black, I would have had the same facts and could have said the same thing. The color of these people has absolutely nothing to do with my argument.

So why did things get worse? What argument are you making?

The American South was prosperous and peaceful before the civil war. Does that mean that the civil war was bad? Millions died and the economy in the south was virtually destroyed.

 

[Hantlers]

So why did things get worse? What argument are you making?

The American South was prosperous and peaceful before the civil war. Does that mean that the civil war was bad? Millions died and the economy in the south was virtually destroyed.

Multiple reasons for why things got worse. What argument am I making? Frankly, I'm sick of people acting like Mandela was some saint. Did he do some good? Absolutely. Did he do some bad? Absolutely. It would be foolish to ignore both sides. I'm not saying that he didn't do some remarkable things, he absolutely did, but I would be foolish to not point out that he's done some terrible things as well.

 

[UGLI baby]

So why did things get worse? What argument are you making?

The American South was prosperous and peaceful before the civil war. Does that mean that the civil war was bad? Millions died and the economy in the south was virtually destroyed.

Did millions of people really die in the Civil War?

#whoa

 

[Gameface]

Multiple reasons for why things got worse. What argument am I making? Frankly, I'm sick of people acting like Mandela was some saint. Did he do some good? Absolutely. Did he do some bad? Absolutely. It would be foolish to ignore both sides. I'm not saying that he didn't do some remarkable things, he absolutely did, but I would be foolish to not point out that he's done some terrible things as well.

Okay, that's fine. Mandela was no saint. In a struggle for liberation from an unjust system he got blood on his hands.

That's not all that you're saying though. You're saying that dismantling apartheid itself was not worth the price paid. That the blacks in South Africa were better off under apartheid and that Mandela ruined it.

Security, peace and prosperity are noble ideals. If it comes at the price of apartheid or any similar unjust system of repression then I think revolt is justified, even at the cost of some of that security, peace and prosperity.

 

[Gameface]

Did millions of people really die in the Civil War?

#whoa

checking my facts, please stand by...

Okay, it was an overstatement.

Q. How many soldiers died in the Civil War as compared to other American wars?

Roughly 1,264,000 American soldiers have died in the nation's wars--620,000 in the Civil War and 644,000 in all other conflicts. It was only as recently as the Vietnam War that the amount of American deaths in foreign wars eclipsed the number who died in the Civil War.

 

[Hantlers]

Okay, that's fine. Mandela was no saint. In a struggle for liberation from an unjust system he got blood on his hands.

That's not all that you're saying though. You're saying that dismantling apartheid itself was not worth the price paid. That the blacks in South Africa were better off under apartheid and that Mandela ruined it.

Security, peace and prosperity are noble ideals. If it comes at the price of apartheid or any similar unjust system of repression then I think revolt is justified, even at the cost of some of that security, peace and prosperity.

Is that what I said? I don't believe it is.

I simply said that things aren't as good as people say they are. This isn't that difficult.

 

[Gameface]

Is that what I said? I don't believe it is.

I simply said that things aren't as good as people say they are. This isn't that difficult.

Okay, not how I read it but I'll let you speak for yourself.

 

[♪alt13]

(opening a can of worms)

What differences and similarities do you all see between South African Apartheid and Modern day Israel/Palestine?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xscq2nIKLHM