Nelson Mandela Dies

[b_line]

I'm not a fan of Lincoln either. Very overrated President.

This is borderline retarded. Lincoln did more for our country than basically anyone. He did something not even the founding fathers were willing to do in abolishing slavery.

To think that is over rated, you either have to be racist or ridiculously stupid.

 

[Hantlers]

This is borderline retarded. Lincoln did more for our country than basically anyone. He did something not even the founding fathers were willing to do in abolishing slavery.

To think that is over rated, you either have to be racist or ridiculously stupid.

Again, the ends do not justify the means.

I suggest you read 'Forced into Glory' by Lerone Bennett.

 

[♪alt13]

I can honestly state that I did not get those quotes from that page. Had no idea it came from that. Seriously.

I believe you. I googled mandela bombings and this came up. Might I suggest that you look a little deeper into this history though. All of the sites that I read through said nothing about Boer atrocities, which gives us a context to put Mandelas actions in. They also don't mention the good that Mandela did do.

 

[♪alt13]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5OJ205MdKI

 

[Hantlers]

This is borderline retarded. Lincoln did more for our country than basically anyone. He did something not even the founding fathers were willing to do in abolishing slavery.

To think that is over rated, you either have to be racist or ridiculously stupid.

Oh, and just cause I like quotes from people...about his whole slavery deal....


"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the
institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have
no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so." - 1860

 

[Hantlers]

I believe you. I googled mandela bombings and this came up. Might I suggest that you look a little deeper into this history though. All of the sites that I read through said nothing about Boer atrocities, which gives us a context to put Mandelas actions in. They also don't mention the good that Mandela did do.

I believe I did say that Mandela had done some very good things. I'm just not going to overlook some of the atrocities that he committed as well. It did appear that he changed late in life, which is great, but we would be remiss to forget some of the things that he had done.

 

[b_line]

Again, the ends do not justify the means.

I suggest you read 'Forced into Glory' by Lerone Bennett.

I disagree that the ends don't justify the means. And I think millions of black people from the 1600's on would disagree with you too.

I do not think the good that was accomplished can ever be understated by not having slavery in this country. It was, in my mind, the single most unjust thing we have ever done was to enslave others based on the color of their skin.

 

[Duck Rodgers]

Re: Pushback to Mandela. Quotes like these are interesting:

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/07/world/africa/mandela-politics.html?hp&_r=0

“The point is that it was not a popular position, but no one beat him up for it,” said Steven Friedman, a University of Johannesburg political science professor and director of the Center for the Study of Democracy.

“There isn’t this kind of mania about him here that there is in some quarters overseas,” Mr. Friedman said of Mr. Mandela. “This sanctified image of him has always been more extreme elsewhere in the world than the local attitude.”

I don't think this is any different than when one of the Royals is pimped for whatever reason and people are always pointing out the crap they are involved in. It's a pushback against a distorted picture, not the individual or whatever positive they may have accomplished.

 

[♪alt13]

The ends don't justify the means. I cannot support the bombing of innocent civilians.

Was bombing German cities in ww2 justifiable?

 

[Hantlers]

I disagree that the ends don't justify the means. And I think millions of black people from the 1600's on would disagree with you too.

I do not think the good that was accomplished can ever be understated by not having slavery in this country. It was, in my mind, the single most unjust thing we have ever done was to enslave others based on the color of their skin.

You disagree the ends don't justify the means? Good grief child.

Lincoln should have not been able to outlaw the government. It sets up for a poor precedent. Of course slavery was unfair, unjust, and wrong. Only a complete moron would argue against it. That does not mean that we got rid of slavery in the right way.

And I don't think Lincoln is the man you think he is.

“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races,” - Lincoln

Lincoln wanted to move the black people to Africa or Central America so that we wouldn't have slavery. In essence, he wanted a white America. And the he didn't really get involved in the Civil War over slavery. The South left over slavery, the North joined the war to keep them from leaving, not because they didn't want the south to have slavery. He just didn't want to lose the south, their factories, and their money.

 

[Hantlers]

Was bombing German cities in ww2 justifiable?

Tricky. It would be more comparable if we bombed our own cities, killing our own innocent civilians to implement ideas that we thought were right.

 

[b_line]

You disagree the ends don't justify the means? Good grief child.

Lincoln should have not been able to outlaw the government. It sets up for a poor precedent. Of course slavery was unfair, unjust, and wrong. Only a complete moron would argue against it. That does not mean that we got rid of slavery in the right way.

And I don't think Lincoln is the man you think he is.

“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races,” - Lincoln

Lincoln wanted to move the black people to Africa or Central America so that we wouldn't have slavery. In essence, he wanted a white America. And the he didn't really get involved in the Civil War over slavery. The South left over slavery, the North joined the war to keep them from leaving, not because they didn't want the south to have slavery. He just didn't want to lose the south, their factories, and their money.

Lincoln was a politician.
All politicians are corrupt and lie to get what they want.

In my mind, slavery is a far greater bad than betraying the office of the president or whatever else he did that was so bad in your mind.

 

[Gameface]

Lincoln was a politician.
All politicians are corrupt and lie to get what they want.

In my mind, slavery is a far greater bad than betraying the office of the president or whatever else he did that was so bad in your mind.

But in order to end slavery Lincoln had to set a bad precedent. Obviously should have let slavery stand. Can't be setting bad precedents.

 

[Hantlers]

Lincoln was a politician.
All politicians are corrupt and lie to get what they want.

In my mind, slavery is a far greater bad than betraying the office of the president or whatever else he did that was so bad in your mind.

So because all politicians are corrupt and lie, that's ok?

I'm glad that you think that our leaders should just be able to do whatever they want to further their ideas of what is good. Freaking brilliant.

 

[Hantlers]

But in order to end slavery Lincoln had to set a bad precedent. Obviously should have let slavery stand. Can't be setting bad precedents.

That's exactly what I said. Congratulations.

 

[b_line]

So because all politicians are corrupt and lie, that's ok?

I'm glad that you think that our leaders should just be able to do whatever they want to further their ideas of what is good. Freaking brilliant.

Obviously you have never once given any thought to what it might be like to be a slave, have your children be slaves, their children be slaves, and so on and so forth, all while your white master can do whatever the hell he wants to you with no thought of repercussion.

But yeah, slavery is sooooo much better than being thought of as one great person while millions if others suffer.

I do not think lying is good. I do not think breaking laws are bad. But in my mind, human decency and not having millions of slaves for the comfort of some rich white guys trumps any law put forth by the white guys who own slaves.

Edit: I meant to say I do not thing breaking the law is good.

 

[b_line]

That's exactly what I said. Congratulations.

Well, what are you saying then? Is it worth it to abolish slavery if that is the only means with which to do it?

The previous one hundred years of our country's history beg to differ.

 

[Gameface]

That's exactly what I said. Congratulations.

I can has fun too.

 

[♪alt13]

Tricky. It would be more comparable if we bombed our own cities, killing our own innocent civilians to implement ideas that we thought were right.

He wasn't trying to "implement ideas that he thought were right". He was trying to stop some pretty severe injustices.

 

[LogGrad98]

The phrase "the ends do not justify the means" is hollow. Of course the ends justify the means, exactly like the process of planning to achieve an end will generate the means to achieve that end. They go hand in hand. The phrase would be more accurately stated as "I do not think the ends were important enough to justify use of those particular means to accomplish them". Then we can get to the meat of it and discuss the means in question, rather than the straw man of a hollow platitude. Because obviously someone felt those means were justified by the ends that were accomplished, or in causal order, someone felt it was necessary to employ those means in order to accomplish the ends they sought to accomplish.

So what exactly were the unforgivable "means" employed by Lincoln to bring about the "ends" of the abolition of slavery?