Obama Government Shutdown?

[franklin]

So you are incapable of the intellectual exercise of entertaining different opinions than your own, and exploring outcomes you find absurd just because you can't fathom a different point of view. Fair enough.

You're accusing me of not entertaining different opinions when your options are 1) throw a fit and shut down govt. for not defunding Obamacare, or 2) shut down the govt. and blame it on Democrats for not defunding Obamacare.

You can't accuse someone of intellectual dishonesty when you're attempting to back the discussion into a corner and then claiming nobody will compromise with a my way or the highway position. The Tea Baggers aren't in a position to throw that temper tantrum.

 

[Stoked]

Well, I thought my job was safe. Apparently if this thing continues for 2 weeks it will affect us.
That's reassuring. Less hours, no hours, completely shut down? That's all I heard today. "After two weeks we'll be affected"
Oh great! lol

2 weeks is a long ways away, but damn this just hit home.

It sucks huh?

 

[franklin]

Yeah but no one is willing to discuss that as a viable scenario, when it was all along a valid option.

I agree that shouldn't have had to happen to keep things moving, but it is still an option that the dems could have taken to keep the government running.

And the ACA is not very popular among the general populace right now. Even in the article about it someone posted with an interview with Bill Clinton, he admitted that it isn't what the people wants, but he takes a Nolan stance and just says "but it's what they need, they just don't know it right now, it will be great down the road". Didn't know he was a prophet, but then again this fight is taking on religious undertones wherein logic has no sway.

Notice all of the arguments on JF for it have centered around Obama or others being re-elected on a platform that includes healthcare reform, but no one has stated that the american people voted outright for obamacare. It is always a begs the question scenario, and a real stretch at that. Obamacare in its current form didn't even exist during any of those elections, so how can anyone with the ability to reason claim that the american people defacto voted for EXACTLY this version when they voted in Obama. Maybe that is true for that one individual making the claim, but that hardly makes it true for everyone.

And no one has chosen to address the point that this all changed when the provision was added to force everyone to participate, and that this is the sticking point of the GOP originally. Yes the tea party has taken it to "terrorist" levels to quote franklin, and I agree with that assessment largely, but that doesn't absolve everyone else of the responsibility to keep things moving and doing what is best for the american people.

That said, maybe what is best for the american people right now is EXACTLY what is happening. Maybe this will force people in both parties to reconsider such hardline stances and will change the way people vote. Maybe we can get the tea party jerks out of office as the american people see their true colors, and maybe it will be a catalyzing agent to get the electorate to pay more attention to what is going on rather than just voting on sound bites.

Defeating logic. If the people didn't want Obamacare then the Tea Baggers wouldn't have to hold the economy over our heads to get it repealed. In fact, they tried repealing it three times a day for 5 straight years and lost every time. The people clearly want Obamacare.

 

[Harambe]

Well, I thought my job was safe. Apparently if this thing continues for 2 weeks it will affect us.
That's reassuring. Less hours, no hours, completely shut down? That's all I heard today. "After two weeks we'll be affected"
Oh great! lol

2 weeks is a long ways away, but damn this just hit home.

Good thing you got that supplemental income from being a JF mod

Defeating logic. If the people didn't want Obamacare then the Tea Baggers wouldn't have to hold the economy over our heads to get it repealed. In fact, they tried repealing it three times a day for 5 straight years and lost every time. The people clearly want Obamacare.

I'm not sure the people want the ACA. I think they want and need something to be done about healthcare costs. And they want a perfect solution, to which the ACA is likely not in it's current state. But the American people NEED something to be done about healthcare. The ACA is on the table as a law(which the American people NEED), but because it's not (pick one of the following; red idea, perfect, an idea that didn't have Obama's name on it), the red doesn't want it.

After 30+ years, several versions of the government failed to pass anything. Which is probably why I'm so for doing SOMETHING.

 

[Stoked]

You're accusing me of not entertaining different opinions when your options are 1) throw a fit and shut down govt. for not defunding Obamacare, or 2) shut down the govt. and blame it on Democrats for not defunding Obamacare.

You can't accuse someone of intellectual dishonesty when you're attempting to back the discussion into a corner and then claiming nobody will compromise with a my way or the highway position. The Tea Baggers aren't in a position to throw that temper tantrum.

Republicans are very much using what you said and I think they should be removed from office. But Reid is tabling any bill the House has sent him to avoid the shutdown. That is a my way or the highway approach as well.

If you want to talk about honesty then try putting some in your post.

 

[franklin]

Republicans are very much using what you said and I think they should be removed from office. But Reid is tabling any bill the House has sent him to avoid the shutdown. That is a my way or the highway approach as well.

If you want to talk about honesty then try putting some in your post.

What bill did the house send that did not include Tea Bagger Temper Tantrum?

Give us another option to consider, for intellectual exercise and all.

 

[Revolution 9]

It sucks huh?

Sure does. At this point I can't start to freak out about anything. I'm just pissed for the family members who are getting a fraction of the services they have earned.

There are people that are being ordered to work, but they are being told they may not be pain on time. Ouch. I'm still feeling for my friends, and hoping
I am spared.

How is it affecting you so far bro?

 

[Stoked]

Sure does. At this point I can't start to freak out about anything. I'm just pissed for the family members who are getting a fraction of the services they have earned.

There are people that are being ordered to work, but they are being told they may not be pain on time. Ouch. I'm still feeling for my friends, and hoping
I am spared.

How is it affecting you so far bro?

I go to work but am not getting paid till the pass a budget. That puts my child support late as well. Any leave is cancelled and if I am not at work I am AWOL.

 

[LogGrad98]

You're accusing me of not entertaining different opinions when your options are 1) throw a fit and shut down govt. for not defunding Obamacare, or 2) shut down the govt. and blame it on Democrats for not defunding Obamacare.

You can't accuse someone of intellectual dishonesty when you're attempting to back the discussion into a corner and then claiming nobody will compromise with a my way or the highway position. The Tea Baggers aren't in a position to throw that temper tantrum.

Please show me where I have advocated either of those options? I have been presenting the dissenting voice to the majority of the posters from the get-go, which happens to be that position, but I have never advocated that position as the best choice. I put forth the idea that maybe to engage in real political change this is a good thing to happen right now, but in no way did I ever say I was in favor of a shutdown in any way.

But you again avoided the discussion. Fair enough. Keep spouting vitriol and insults. You have gone a long way with it so far.

 

[franklin]

Please show me where I have advocated either of those options? I have been presenting the dissenting voice to the majority of the posters from the get-go, which happens to be that position, but I have never advocated that position as the best choice. I put forth the idea that maybe to engage in real political change this is a good thing to happen right now, but in no way did I ever say I was in favor of a shutdown in any way.

But you again avoided the discussion. Fair enough. Keep spouting vitriol and insults. You have gone a long way with it so far.

You can go on attacking me all you want, but I can't consider an alternate proposal until you put up an alternate proposal. The anti-democracy tea bagger temper tantrum heard around the world is not an alternate proposal.

 

[green]

Call him troll all you'd like but the sad part here is he's right.

There are a lot of moderate republicans out there who understand that the shut down is a big deal, but are falling in line because "that's what they're supposed to do".

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-government-shutdown-20131002,0,7797757.story

I mean, at least they're swinging wildly to get the issue over with as quickly as possible.

Boehner feels like he has no choice in the matter. He feels like at this point, with as entrenched as he is in this battle, if he walks out with nothing it will cripple him politically.

Kind of like how Obama threatened a lot of the moderate dems that if they didn't vote for a bill they hadn't read (Obamacare) he would work against their re-election.

Yeah, the republicans are SOOO different than the dems.

I've said it 100 times in this thread:

They are both doing the same things.

 

[green]

You're accusing me of not entertaining different opinions when your options are 1) throw a fit and shut down govt. for not defunding Obamacare, or 2) shut down the govt. and blame it on Democrats for not defunding Obamacare.

You can't accuse someone of intellectual dishonesty when you're attempting to back the discussion into a corner and then claiming nobody will compromise with a my way or the highway position. The Tea Baggers aren't in a position to throw that temper tantrum.

OK, so what do you propose? Raising taxes won't fix anything. The only thing that can get us back on stable ground is cuts. What do you propose to cut so we can get a budget passed?

Or is this just the rich's fault, and they should be taxed at 100% to fix this (even though that won't fix it)?

 

[LogGrad98]

Defeating logic. If the people didn't want Obamacare then the Tea Baggers wouldn't have to hold the economy over our heads to get it repealed. In fact, they tried repealing it three times a day for 5 straight years and lost every time. The people clearly want Obamacare.

When did you vote on it? I never saw it as an option to vote on it. You mean the president and legislature refused to repeal it, right? So the president refusing to reverse his signature legislation = complete and total public approval. Gotcha.

 

[Revolution 9]

Or is this just the rich's fault, and they should be taxed at 100% to fix this (even though that won't fix it)?

Weren't you complaining about these types of statements yesterday?

 

[LogGrad98]

You can go on attacking me all you want, but I can't consider an alternate proposal until you put up an alternate proposal. The anti-democracy tea bagger temper tantrum heard around the world is not an alternate proposal.

I never attacked anyone. You did. I asked a question. That is all. You chose not to answer it and instead throw insults around. Fine. My question was, could the democrats have accepted one of the proposals that defunded Obamacare. Instead of considering it you freaked out. Fine, but don't derail any and all discussion because you are incapable of tabling your obviously passionate opinions to briefly consider a dissenting viewpoint from your own.

You made it clear you refuse to consider it, that's fine. But don't try to deny it was an option, because it was an option. PLEASE NOTE I AM NOT SAYING IT IS THE BEST OPTION OR WHAT SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED, I AM ASKING A WHAT IF SO PLEASE DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

 

[Revolution 9]

I go to work but am not getting paid till the pass a budget. That puts my child support late as well. Any leave is cancelled and if I am not at work I am AWOL.

Exactly what some of my friends are in. They don't show up they are AWOL.

Hang in there buddy. It could be a rough ride.

 

[Harambe]

Kind of like how Obama threatened a lot of the moderate dems that if they didn't vote for a bill they hadn't read (Obamacare) he would work against their re-election.

Yeah, the republicans are SOOO different than the dems.

I've said it 100 times in this thread:

They are both doing the same things.

I don't remember that at all. I remember him saying we need to pass it, and stating the obvious(which is that your re-election counts on it), not that he threatened them at all.

But I would be interested in looking at it, if you can provide a link.

 

[Stoked]

You can go on attacking me all you want, but I can't consider an alternate proposal until you put up an alternate proposal. The anti-democracy tea bagger temper tantrum heard around the world is not an alternate proposal.

Attacking you...haha. awesome.

 

[LogGrad98]

 

[franklin]

I never attacked anyone. You did. I asked a question. That is all. You chose not to answer it and instead throw insults around. Fine. My question was, could the democrats have accepted one of the proposals that defunded Obamacare. Instead of considering it you freaked out. Fine, but don't derail any and all discussion because you are incapable of tabling your obviously passionate opinions to briefly consider a dissenting viewpoint from your own.

You made it clear you refuse to consider it, that's fine. But don't try to deny it was an option, because it was an option. PLEASE NOTE I AM NOT SAYING IT IS THE BEST OPTION OR WHAT SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED, I AM ASKING A WHAT IF SO PLEASE DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

Equating caving in to the Tea Bagger's temper tantrum as a teacher caving into a kindergartener is not freaking out or insulting. It's calling a spade a spade, but okay, whatever, be thin-skinned and start throwing around insults. I'm not capable of considering anything other than my own passionate opinion (that you somehow know yet don't want others putting words in your mouth) and I refuse to go through a thought experiment (even though you fail to put anything forward that's not caving into tea bagger temper tantrum of defunding Obamacare).

I get it. Totally makes sense. Moving on.