Offseason Random Twitter Comments about Jazz Players

[NAOS]

How many centers average 4 APG again? Also, who could we replace al with at the 5 that would result in better passing from your big man?

How many Cs get as many touches as Al does so early in the shot clock? How many Cs are primary scorers?

You ask a blunt/badly worded question.

 

[Deleted member 848]

How many Cs get as many touches as Al does so early in the shot clock? How many Cs are primary scorers?

You ask a blunt/badly worded question.

Olajuwon would fit both of those descriptions, as well as being one of the better passing big men of NBA history. Still, he only averaged over 3.0APG for 4/18 seasons(peaking at 3.6), averaging 2.5 over the course of his career. I think that 2.5 APG should be okay for Al as well.


Also, badly worded in what regard?

 

[Stoked]

How many centers average 4 APG again? Also, who could we replace al with at the 5 that would result in better passing from your big man?

I have already said Big Al has gotten better at passing. I just want more. He still forces things and misses obvious passes. I think the critique I have leveled is valid and fairly close to the point.

 

[NAOS]

Olajuwon would fit both of those descriptions, as well as being one of the better passing big men of NBA history. Still, he only averaged over 3.0APG for 4/18 seasons(peaking at 3.6), averaging 2.5 over the course of his career. I think that 2.5 APG should be okay for Al as well.

For fun, let's try to stay in the current era. Rule changes have made this a different game than in Dream's day.

Also, badly worded in what regard?

You asked your question in a way that provoked a response: namely, that I was calling for 4 assists per game from the Center position and had to answer on these terms. That's not what I'm calling for. I want to take touches from Jefferson and give them to one or two guys that can deliver 4 more quality assists per game.

 

[Deleted member 848]

For fun, let's try to stay in the current era. Rule changes have made this a different game than in Dream's day.

Assisting has changed? To me, this awfully seems like you just trying to avoid the question for the sake of convenience, but whatever. This question conveniently become difficuly for me to answer if we ignore past eras, seeing as there are very very few dominate-centers in today's NBA, that command a similar amount of possessions to Al Jefferson. From what I can think of, I'd guess that Bogut and Howard both get a similar amount of possessions per game. Bogut averages 2.6APG, 0.4 more than Al. Dwight, on the other hand, averaged 1.9, despite the fact that his team was packed with much more capable shooters than Al Jefferson last season. So should we really be expecting our 5 to me averaging THAT many more assists? Unless we stumble across a career 3.1-3.2 APG 4/5 like Pau or Duncan, we cant really do much better than Al, but we sure could do a helluva lot worse.

You asked your question in a way that provoked a response: namely, that I was calling for 4 assists per game from the Center position and had to answer on these terms. That's not what I'm calling for. I want to take touches from Jefferson and give them to one or two guys that can deliver 4 more quality assists per game.

To me, this is on the play of the offense, and not Al. I think it would be a HUGE stretch to think that Al intentionally hogs the ball, and refuses to let other players be more immersed in the offense. Honestly, 60% of our plays resulted in Al backing down on the left box and everyone spaced out BECAUSE an iso-play was most-likely called out before the half-court set began. Its quite obvious just from watching the games, at least in my opinion. Our offense is one-dimensional, and overly-filled with Jefferson-isos because of Corbin, not Jefferson. I sincerely doubt that Al was the one who stopped Corbin from running more Harris/Favors P&Rs in crunch-time, a la the Golden State game. Corbz needs to come out of training camp with a much more diverse, versatile offense for next season.

 

[Deleted member 848]

I have already said Big Al has gotten better at passing. I just want more. He still forces things and misses obvious passes. I think the critique I have leveled is valid and fairly close to the point.

I understand that you want more and trust me, I do too. But quite frankly, what is our alternative? Favors or Kanter would both be worse, as far as passing is concerned. There are only 2-3 good passing bigmen in the NBA, and none of them are easily obtainable. Crying over Al Jefferson not averaging >3APG seems a bit dumb to me, when so few centers do so to begin with. Crying over his ******** defense, however, is completely understandable.

 

[NAOS]

Assisting has changed? To me, this awfully seems like you just trying to avoid the question for the sake of convenience, but whatever. This question conveniently become difficuly for me to answer if we ignore past eras, seeing as there are very very few dominate-centers in today's NBA, that command a similar amount of possessions to Al Jefferson. From what I can think of, I'd guess that Bogut and Howard both get a similar amount of possessions per game. Bogut averages 2.6APG, 0.4 more than Al. Dwight, on the other hand, averaged 1.9, despite the fact that his team was packed with much more capable shooters than Al Jefferson last season. So should we really be expecting our 5 to me averaging THAT many more assists? Unless we stumble across a career 3.1-3.2 APG 4/5 like Pau or Duncan, we cant really do much better than Al, but we sure could do a helluva lot worse.

Where pressure comes from and where passes go has changed because of rule changes. So, yes, comparisons with players who played before these rule changes are limited. It's like comparing Montana's passing records to Brady's... even Brady himself says that's a limited way to look at the game. I know you're a young'un, but the difference between early Malone and late Malone is key. Rule changes... then, adaptation through passing.

To me, this is on the play of the offense, and not Al. I think it would be a HUGE stretch to think that Al intentionally hogs the ball, and refuses to let other players be more immersed in the offense. Honestly, 60% of our plays resulted in Al backing down on the left box and everyone spaced out BECAUSE an iso-play was most-likely called out before the half-court set began. Its quite obvious just from watching the games, at least in my opinion. Our offense is one-dimensional, and overly-filled with Jefferson-isos because of Corbin, not Jefferson. I sincerely doubt that Al was the one who stopped Corbin from running more Harris/Favors P&Rs in crunch-time, a la the Golden State game. Corbz needs to come out of training camp with a much more diverse, versatile offense for next season.

What you are implying here is that Al can be used very differently than he has in his career if only his coaching were different. I'd suggest that the structure of the offense has a lot to do with what Al is capable of doing.... but that must be nutzo <pause> NOT.

 

[NAOS]

I understand that you want more and trust me, I do too. But quite frankly, what is our alternative? Favors or Kanter would both be worse, as far as passing is concerned. There are only 2-3 good passing bigmen in the NBA, and none of them are easily obtainable. Crying over Al Jefferson not averaging >3APG seems a bit dumb to me, when so few centers do so to begin with. Crying over his ******** defense, however, is completely understandable.

You strike out on the fundamental idea.
It's not about subbing some other sweet passing Center for Al. It's about taking Al's touches and giving them to somebody else (not at C). Give them to Hayward and Millsap.

 

[Stoked]

I understand that you want more and trust me, I do too. But quite frankly, what is our alternative? Favors or Kanter would both be worse, as far as passing is concerned. There are only 2-3 good passing bigmen in the NBA, and none of them are easily obtainable. Crying over Al Jefferson not averaging >3APG seems a bit dumb to me, when so few centers do so to begin with. Crying over his ******** defense, however, is completely understandable.

I do not excuses Big Als (or anyone for that matter) failures or areas he needs to improve upon "because others are doing it". Kanter and Favors clearly have alot of work to do in the passing department. But we are talking about Big Al now are we not? As for crying, I do not see calls for him to continue his work on improving his passing as crying over it. I hope he reads this site and uses our critiques to push himself to be better.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Where pressure comes from and where passes go has changed because of rule changes. So, yes, comparisons with players who played before these rule changes are limited. It's like comparing Montana's passing records to Brady's... even Brady himself says that's a limited way to look at the game. I know you're a young'un, but the difference between early Malone and late Malone is key. Rule changes... then, adaptation through passing.

I am fully aware of what these rule changes were, and have a decent idea of how they could've affected passing, but I still think it would be a stretch to say that those centers would average much more assists in today's NBA. Again, seems like a cop-out of an answer. Whatever, agree to disagree I suppose.

What you are implying here is that Al can be used very differently than he has in his career if only his coaching were different.

Very differently? I'm just suggesting that he gets less touches, maybe less minutes, and sets a decent screen that my 10 year old brother could do. Besides, it would not be the first time that Al has been instructed to focus on other aspects of offense, as opposed to just posting up on the block:

The key to the triangle working in Minnesota is the willingness of Flynn and Al Jefferson, who is slowly regaining his rhythm after missing the final 32 games of last season following surgery on his right knee, to buy into it rather than reverting back to what they are comfortable doing.
"I'm asking [Jefferson] to do things he's never been asked to do in his entire professional career," said Rambis. "I'm asking him to play defense and rebound more. I'm asking him to be more of a playmaker and play away from the basket some. Some of the aspects of learning what we're doing are very foreign to him. He's used to just running to the left block and posting up and everybody throwing him the ball."


Read more: https://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/arash_markazi/11/05/wolves/index.html#ixzz22tEu8d7q

As we all know, Rambis blew the big one, and the triangle didn't work. Still, we have a MUCH more talented roster than the 2009 Wolves, and I would LOVE to see Corbin consider thinking a little outside (but not that far, of course) the box, and not limit our offense to just what Al is used to doing. With a better coaching staff, and better talent, Al has a much higher probability to succeed than he did back in Minnesota.

I'd suggest that the structure of the offense has a lot to do with what Al is capable of doing.... but that must be nutzo <pause> NOT.

I'd suggest that it has a lot to do with the lack of a training camp, coupled with a relatively young head coach who has not had time to think of offense as much as he did on defense (this was reported after the lockout ended last season)

 

[Deleted member 848]

You strike out on the fundamental idea.
It's not about subbing some other sweet passing Center for Al. It's about taking Al's touches and giving them to somebody else (not at C). Give them to Hayward and Millsap.

No I'm not. I have said SEVERAL times that Al should get fewer touches, in this thread in many, many others. You are striking out with your reading comprehension. I am saying that it is not Al's FAULT for other teammates getting other touches, it is Corbin's.

 

[NAOS]

I am fully aware of what these rule changes were, and have a decent idea of how they could've affected passing, but I still think it would be a stretch to say that those centers would average much more assists in today's NBA. Again, seems like a cop-out of an answer. Whatever, agree to disagree I suppose.

when did I say they would? (hint: I didn't)

... and I would LOVE to see Corbin consider thinking a little outside (but not that far, of course) the box, and not limit our offense to just what Al is used to doing. With a better coaching staff, and better talent, Al has a much higher probability to succeed than he did back in Minnesota.



I'd suggest that it has a lot to do with the lack of a training camp, coupled with a relatively young head coach who has not had time to think of offense as much as he did on defense (this was reported after the lockout ended last season)

Yes, Corbin has to do A LOT MORE with the offense this year. It just sounds like I'm more skeptical of Jefferson's ability to adapt than you are. (I also feel pretty comfortable in my skepticism since there is plenty of evidence to support it.)

 

[Deleted member 848]

I do not excuses Big Als (or anyone for that matter) failures or areas he needs to improve upon "because others are doing it". Kanter and Favors clearly have alot of work to do in the passing department. But we are talking about Big Al now are we not? As for crying, I do not see calls for him to continue his work on improving his passing as crying over it. I hope he reads this site and uses our critiques to push himself to be better.

Okay. I just think that us complaining about passing is not nearly as important (especially when we had the 7th best offense in the NBA last season) as complaining about plays not being run for Millsap, Hayward, or defense most importantly. Al getting 0.7 APG more is really not that big of a deal. Al having having the lateral quickness of a snail in pick and roll situations IS a big deal, however.

 

[NAOS]

No I'm not. I have said SEVERAL times that Al should get fewer touches, in this thread in many, many others. You are striking out with your reading comprehension. I am saying that it is not Al's FAULT for other teammates getting other touches, it is Corbin's.

I haven't been here for a while + I don't comb through the thread looking for your responses to everything. Apologies.

Just within the past few volleys of this thread I tried to engage you on this basic (Money Ball sort of) idea of redistributing touches and passes and I didn't see you respond to it. Instead, you were continuing to beat the drum of a 4+ assist center, which is something I never called for. Go back through OUR discussion and you'll see.

 

[NAOS]

Al having having the lateral quickness of a snail in pick and roll situations IS a big deal, however.

we agree completely

 

[Deleted member 848]

when did I say they would? (hint: I didn't)



Yes, Corbin has to do A LOT MORE with the offense this year. It just sounds like I'm more skeptical of Jefferson's ability to adapt than you are. (I also feel pretty comfortable in my skepticism since there is plenty of evidence to support it.)

Adapt? He sure adapted when plays were ran for Millsap in late-game situations. He sure adapted when plays were ran for Hayward in late game situations

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9XNtvpx-Nk
3:11 mark, at the part where Millsap hits that clutch-jumper. How much 'adapting' did Al have to do in order to successfully run that play for Millsap?

 

[NAOS]

Adapt? He sure adapted when plays were ran for Millsap in late-game situations. He sure adapted when plays were ran for Hayward in late game situations

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9XNtvpx-Nk
3:11 mark, at the part where Millsap hits that clutch-jumper. How much 'adapting' did Al have to do in order to successfully run that play for Millsap?

So, I've been saying to give more touches to Paul and Gordon.... thanks for that example.
Also, specifically to that play: I'd rather have a high-flying defensive presence at the C (AHEM, FAVORS) than Al. I suspect you might feel the same way.

 

[Deleted member 848]

I haven't been here for a while + I don't comb through the thread looking for your responses to everything. Apologies.

Just within the past few volleys of this thread I tried to engage you on this basic (Money Ball sort of) idea of redistributing touches and passes and I didn't see you respond to it. Instead, you were continuing to beat the drum of a 4+ assist center, which is something I never called for. Go back through OUR discussion and you'll see.

Well, the purpose of this discussion was talking about whether Al really is a "black-hole" on offense who doesnt not pass well at all. You called for Al becoming a better passer. I am saying that he really is not that bad, rather he is right around average, and that his black-hole reputation is based much more on the amount of possessions and plays that are run for him, as opposed to him just not passing well enough. To me, the 'Al Jefferson sucks at passing' complaint is a credible one, but not nearly as important as some of the other flaws we have with this team.

 

[Deleted member 848]

So, I've been saying to give more touches to Paul and Gordon.... thanks for that example.

Again, so would I. I have said this ad-nauseum, particularly around the Spurs-playoff series when I'd complain that the plays that were being run for Millsap were beyond-terrible. I hope this helps you understand that Al does not need to do a SERIOUS amount of adapting

Also, specifically to that play: I'd rather have a high-flying defensive presence at the C (AHEM, FAVORS) than Al. I suspect you might feel the same way.

I want Favors to start no matter what. I just have a tough-time deciding between Al and Millsap.

 

[Stoked]

Okay. I just think that us complaining about passing is not nearly as important (especially when we had the 7th best offense in the NBA last season) as complaining about plays not being run for Millsap, Hayward, or defense most importantly. Al getting 0.7 APG more is really not that big of a deal. Al having having the lateral quickness of a snail in pick and roll situations IS a big deal, however.

I think Al pushing his APG toup a whole assist would ne a good start to seeing that the shooters are being used more efficiently. As for the D, well I agree but we were not talking about that. Just becasue he has a bigger problem does not mean he should put everything else on the back burner.